Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
If that is so, then my child will not be invisable to the US. Unbelievable.
I will not be the vehicke for the US to learn of my children’s existsnce so that they can exact tribute from them.
No, worst case scenario is they let him in on Japanese passport but not out.
If, as foo reports, I must present my koseki to the US embassy to relinquish and possibly if .i renounce, he will then be known to them and in the system if they pit him in it.
He already has a savings account.
@Japan T, it’s doubtful they’ll hold your son. After all he isn’t in the tax system so they won’t know him. You on the other hand are as you’ve said.
True, he is not in the tax system.
Two points concern me. First, the law requiring he travel to and from the US is independent of the issues we collective face here, is it not? I believe this is the case but may misunderstand.
Second, it seems to me that the US is not as interested in those already in the tax system as it is in compelling as many as possible to enter its tax system.
It seems to me, that it will become very dangerous for my children to enter the US. If that is the case, I really have no need to satisfy the US as I too shall never go. If this is the actual state of things, then he only thing I need to do is work towards meeting the requirements for Japanese citizenship and becoming a good little nipponjin.
@Japan T…let me provide some further wisdom based on what @Meda writes “Whether you registered the birth or not, the US assumes that your child is an American citizen if you meet the residency requirements. ”
The purpose of registering a child with the local US Consulate is to have their US status formally and with finality “adjudicated.”
In order to register your non-US soil children YOU must prove that you have met the residency requirement. In a nut shell, YOU must prove to the satisfaction of the Consulate that you in fact lived in the USA the required number of years. Just BECAUSE you say that you lived there, you play baseball, you eat apple pie and can whistle yankee doodle does NOT mean it is so.
This ties into a runing supportive comment I have had with @Calgary. She may “think” she lived in the USA enough years to taint her son BUT until she proves it…….her son is not a US Citizen.
The USA highly recommends registering early because the information is all fresh and easy to gather by the applicant. As you age, its harder to gather.
But clearly…….the US Government will NOT gather the requisite data to prove your children meet the criteria for the gift of their valued and exceptional US Citizenship.
When your children are older they may decide to apply for a US Passport but if you do not co-operate with them, they will have a difficult time proving they are US Citizens.
So just because you were born in the land of the free and home of the brave and “claim you lived there the required number of years” does NOT make your children US Citizens?
Do you know how many people LIE that that they lived in the USA the required number of years to register their kids???????? Yes, people lie that they lived their the right number of years and sadly my friend just because you claim to have possibly lived in the USA the required number of years unless you can prove it on paper, it is not so.
As Captain Jack Sparrow says……Savvy?
@japanT
I presume that for your son or your wife to travel to the US, they would have to apply for a visa? If so, I am unsure of the questions asked but I do know that the ESTA visa waiver questions have changed and become much more intrusive. I would think that a visa application would be at least as probing. Take a look at the ESTA application below .
They use to just suggest that children of US citizens ‘could’ get a US passport, now they may be more difficult!
https://www.esta-registration.co.uk/esta-application.html
@JapanT, “Two points concern me. First, the law requiring he travel to and from the US is independent of the issues we collective face here, is it not? I believe this is the case but may misunderstand.”
First, read my comment above.
Second, as far as said Border Agent is concerned you are simply another outlander and until the status of said children is ADJUDICATED, they are foreigners!!!!
I know folks who now state; “My children are not registered with the US Embassy because I am unable to prove (with documents) that they are entitled to US Citizenship through me.”
Your children are NOT US Citizens until the US Consulate adjudicates their status. This is just like you remain a US Citizen until State approves the CLN. Savvy?
George,
Except different than Japan T (one US parent of a child born abroad), my son was born in Canada to two US citizens at the time of his birth, which does not have a time period living in the US prerequisite. Despite that, I will not help him prove that he was born in Canada to two US citizens (though this would be, I believe, on the long-form of his birth certificate). Thus, on what anyone might do or not in respect to him right now or after I am gone and my children to inherit what I am able to leave them, plus the inability of him to be able to renounce his US-deemed US citizenship (if he were ever entered into the US system by applying for a passport or a SSN) and a parent, a guardian or a trustee not allowed to act on behalf of a person without requisite mental capacity, he is effectively entrapped. Thus, my decision to do nothing — for the only reason would be for renunciation and official sign-out, which we all know may in the end mean nothing anyway. I look to either the US change to RBT or the country in which my son was born clearly stating to the US that my son (and others like him!) has the same rights and protection of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms as any other born in Canada — *A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian*. I think the only possible means is litigation — either in Canada or against CBT in the US.
@Calgary yes your situation is more difficult but as you say never give them any aid and comfort!!! If they want to adjudicate…let them do it.
Japan T’s kids are in an excellent situation and their father should not worry as badly.
I am so sorry and apologized to my kids for allowing them to be born on US dirt.
None of us knew, especially times long past — we who are parents and our children affected certainly would not have willingly brought this onto the children born to us. I, too, have apologized for my children having been born to me and their father, both of whom had that *Made in the USA* branded onto our rear flanks.
TAKING AN FOREIGN OATH OF ALLEGIANCE MEANS YOU WILL NEED TO RELINQUISH
DO YOU HAVE THE OPTION AFTER SAID OATH, TO RENOUNCE IN LIEU OF RELINQUISH
OR YOU HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO RELINQUISH DUE TO THE FACT
@ERIC WITHERS, you can certainly renounce if you wish to. It’s your right as an American citizen to give up said citizenship if that’s what you want to do. You don’t need a reason or action to do so.
As for the other methods, including taking an oath of alligence, while these are relinquishing acts they don’t necessarily mean you HAVE to give up your US citizenship unless you want to. Of course some countries like Germany and Japan require that you give up any other citizenships when you gain German or Japanese citizenship. But whether you use your relinquishing act or renounce is pretty much up to you, especially as there’s now the same fee for relinquishing as for renuncation.
Eric Withers Taking an oath of allegiance to a foreign state does not mean you will need to relinquish. Do you wish to give up US citizenship or not? That’s the first decision.
given the current state of affairs why would you want to keep it?
Eric
It all depends on your intention after taking the oath. Did you intend to keep both citizenships at that time, or did you intend to relinquish your US one? If you intended to lose your US citizenship and have done nothing ‘American since, like travel on a US passport, or vote in a US election, then you can have that relinquishment recognised at s US consulate and receive your CLN. (Certificate of loss of Nationality). If you have acted as an American since, then you must renounce, if this is what you wish.. Having a relinquishment recognised was once free but now it carries the same fee as renunciation.$2350
There are other considerations, depending on when you took the oath and if you are currently up to date with your US tax obligations.
Unless we know more details, it’s hard to advise.
Why bother renouncing or relinquishing if you have a second or third citizenship. Simply throw away your US passport, don’t tell anyone you used to be an American, go on and live your life in your new country and forget about the past.
Am I missing something here, or is the world consumed with fear that the US government actually cares if one person or a thousand go live somewhere else?
@Steven, you have a valid point and it would be likely dependent on the number of indica a person has.
A “US Citizen” born outside the USA would not have a place of birth indica so your point grows in strength.
A “US Citizen” born inside the USA who has a local passport showing a clear place of birth in the USA may have some problems. Especially if they also have a drivers license showing place of birth.
Other racist indica could also come into play. Accent may betray you, physical appearance may betray you dependent on where you live.
@Steven
Place of birth is noted in most passports. Passports are used for identification and most banks will ask for a copy.
Place of birth is not the same thing as citizenship. If my country X passport shows my place of birth as the USA it does not mean I am a citizen of the USA any more than if a mother from USA giving birth in country X denotes citizenship to the baby born in country X.
@Larry,
According to US law, if you were born in the US, you are a US citizen and the US will treat you as such until you relinquish.
>>>According to US law, if you were born in the US, you are a US citizen<<>>and the US will treat you as such until you relinquish.<<<
You miss the point of my post; if you are in another land living a life as a citizenship of that land, who is to know you used to be a US citizen unless you tell them? And if the US government discovers you are living abroad what are they going to do, come to arrest you and extradite you for the crime of living somewhere else? Only billionaires abroad are, or should be, of interest to the US government, not people who simply live their lives somewhere else.
The whole situation is ironic. Here you have a US president who does everything he can to encourage illegal immigration to the US, granting benefits and eventual citizenship to them, while sending his minions to hunt down citizens abroad. As for the billionaires, their money is already beyond the reach of the tax man. And even if the US government confiscated every penny of their total assets the money collected would only pay interest on the US national debt for a few minutes.
Which is why I say, do not tell anyone you used to be a US citizen and go about living your life in the new country with your new citizenship. I am still looking for a reason why my logic is wrong.
@Polly, “Place of birth is noted in most passports.”
“Many” passports show place of birth that is identifiable with the USA not “most.” Many list solely city/town but not country. Some show place of registration as I believe the Swiss do.
@Larry, the FATCA IGA clearly lists place of birth indica in the USA as a mark of death. Thats the problem. If you show the mark of death, then you need to explain why it does not apply as in show a CLN or have a good explanation.
A good explanation is much easier to provide and far less expensive that a CLN. I can think of a million good explanations; can’t you?
Off topic; the King of Thailand was born in Massachusetts; do you think he needs a CLN? is the US going to extradite him for not filling out some paperwork that they require? is a bank going to deny him a bank account?
Larry,
Good points except for FATCA. The banks we use in our chosen lands are now forced to track down which of their clients have US indica and report us. The US, now that it has forced the world to sign FATCA IGAs isn’t doing anything except waiting for the data to arrive from the financial institutions it extorted. Banks in many countries don’t want any part of this and are first refusing accounts to people who have US indica then closing existing accounts of the same once they are found out. Showing a non US passport with a US PoB without a CLN may be enough to have your bank account closed or worse, frozen.
Your theory is based in the predigital era. Everything is being connected for automatic exchange of information between States. We are in a brave new world.
@JapanT, “Showing a non US passport with a US PoB without a CLN”
If you are outside the USA, showing anything with US indica is a personal security threat to oneself and family BOTH pre/post FATCA.
FATCA flies in the face of all prudent advice given when “residing abroad.”
That said, to the extent I can “support” Larry……one should “bank” with a local client base entity so FATCA is less of a priority. It is conceivable that in Country X, a local client base FI may not be hyper on FATCA rules and upon seeing Passport X, shrug their shoulders key in Citizen of Timbukto and be done with it.
@Larry, you state “good explanation.” At a MINIMUM the good explanation will need to be based on a relinquishing act under US Law with some form of “documentation.” I hate to say it but “self relinquishing” based on “I quit” is not going to go far. That said, if you performed a relinquishing act and at a bare minimum can swear an affadavit before a local lawyer, go for it.