Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@George More like a support forum for abused spouses!
@Jane– Great idea. One section to collect stories/numbers of people who’ve relinquished and renounced purely as a result of FATCA and/or CBT. I was born and raised in Boston– FATCA/CBT drove a spike through my “right of return.” So much for the US signing on to the UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights.
@Jane and @BC Doc, I often wonder if the USG might revoke many CLNs if they conclude that these renunciations were done under duress due to economic burdens.
@monalisa1776
That is one of my big concerns. Many people currently trying to get CLNs had no requirement to get them when they relinquished years ago. Changes in the US after they relinquished forces then to do so now. It has happened once, it can happen again.
@Jane, isn’t the whole IBS website on this? Let’s face it, if FATCA hadn’t happened would any of us be here?
@Medea,
I meant that there are those who left never intending to return & to live forever away from the USA (as I did). I relinquished knowing this. I do not ascribe to the USA’s bully-mentality in all things & never did.
Others here are being “forced” out, which is somewhat different than my case,
My wife still has a green card from 30 years ago when she spent one year working in the US. She also has a social security number. She is born and raised Canadian but her husband at the time was a dual citizen and had a one year job in the US at the time. Is there some way for her to safely get rid of this green card or is her situation no different than any other dual person. I should also add that currently we are residents of Mexico for tax purposes but Canadian citizens. If we have tor re-establish Canadian tax residency to do anything necessary we can do that.
@ Ken Albanese
You might find some answers on this thread …
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/04/03/are-green-card-holders-resident-outside-the-usa-us-persons-under-the-fatca-iga/
And stay tuned to http://www.citizenshipsolutions.ca because John Richardson will be addressing how to safely dispose of a green card in Part 8 of his series.
@Ken Albanese, if it’s from 30 years ago I’d just chuck it in the bin and forget about it. No way IRS are going to be after her for non-filing and her bank isn’t going to think she’s American. It’s probably long expired anyway, but if she wants to do it properly she needs to fill in form i-407 and send it and the card back to the US.
https://www.uscis.gov/i-407
Ken A Don’t even think about changing a thing. Play very close attention to Medea Fleecestealer and pay no attention (on the subject of old green cards ) to MB. You do not want to draw attention by filing I-407 As they say in Brooklyn ‘fugeddaboudid’
@ PortlandPLC RE: your comment to Ken
I actually agree … pay no attention to what I did … unless you want to do everything wrong. I followed the directions of the Calgary US Consulate and I now think they directed me to the wrong disposal site. However, I still think Ken should look for that next installment coming from John Richardson … for informational purposes.
I have recently attended an appointment to formally relinquish my U.S. citizenship to acquire a back dated CLN. I was given a tracking number which I believe was to track the progress of the US state department’s decision on whether I intended to relinquish (absurd that they get to decide that for me after all these years). I am wondering if anyone knows what I am supposed to do with this tracking number or how I can use it to for updates on whether they are going to continue to enslave me?
Welcome to Brock, ReginaRelinquisher!
This tracking number seems like something new. My husband didn’t get such a thing 2 years ago when he relinquished. Sorry I can’t tell you how to use it but hopefully someone here will know. It does sound similar to what my husband used when he was tracking his Canadian citizenship application (over a 17 month time span). Although the status report he accessed online was pretty vague, it at least let him know his application was still “in progress”.
@Regina,
I didn’t get this, my official date of relinquishing being in June of last year…so must be brand new as this is the 1st I’ve heard of it?
@ ReginaRelinquisher
I presume you relinquished in Calgary since Winnipeg doesn’t offer full consulate services, so all I can suggest is that you e-mail them to ask for directions as to how to use the tracking number. I wasn’t able to find any clues on the consulate website which is not very helpful when trying to find answers to specific questions. You might try an Attention to Susan M. Smith who hopefully is still “LES Supervisor of American Citizen Services” in Calgary. She was quite helpful when my husband was relinquishing. The e-mail address is (if it hasn’t changed): Calgary-ACS@state.gov
Can a dual citizen who has already renounced his US citizenship and paid the equired fee, obtain an SSN or TIN in order to fill out and file with the IRS six years of tax returns. This person possessed dual citizenship by virtue of his family moving to Canada when he was a 5 year old. He became a Canadian citizen and has never lived (again) or worked in the US, so never requested a SSN. Is there a Social Security phone number available to Canadians? How can the required SSN or TIN be acquired?
How can a dual citizen who has already renounced his US citizenship and paid the required fee, obtain an SSN or TIN in order to fill out and file with IRS, the required six years of tax returns?. Having never lived in the US after age 5, and never worked or owned property there , he never applied for an SSN. Is there a phone contact number for Social Security that is available to residents of Canada who have pertinent questions?
@Gloria Corbett, they can
a) go through the hassle of trying to get an SSN
b) file the returns and attach an application for an ITIN
c) if the individual has been below the reporting thresholds for income, file an 8854 with a lot of zeroes on it and an application for an ITIN
d) ignore the whole tax thing and don’t bother to file at all
@Gloria Corbett
The good news is he only has to file five years, not six.
Since he is no longer a US citizen, my understanding is that he needs to fill out a Form W-7 in order to apply for a ITIN. (According to the SSN application — “If you are not a U.S. citizen and do not have DHS work authorization, you must prove that you have a valid non-work reason for requesting a card” — it looks like he might be able to make a case for getting one, if needing a SSN to file taxes is considered a “valid non-work reason” but I haven’t heard of anyone who’s done this.)
https://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Obtaining-an-ITIN-from-Abroad
Since he’s gone through the trouble and expense of officially renouncing, I think he’s smart to tie up the loose ends. Keep in mind that the taxes, FBARs and the 8554 have to be filed by June of the year after renunciation. For example, I renounced this year so I will have to file my 8854, taxes and FBARs by June 15, 2017.
@Gloria
To check out you need to file 5 full years of tax returns + a partial for the renunciation year and 6 yrs of fbars( if you have more than $10,000 total in all your ‘foreign’ accounts) and the 8854 by June 15, the year following your renunciation.
https://www.ssa.gov/international/AlienTax_contact.html
You can try contacting them but they are overworked and pretty clueless if they ever answer.
I would go with TIN application with returns.
Gloria The so called requirement to file 5 1/2 years of tax returns is a foreign law which does not have to be obeyed. Sort of like the Saudi law that women can’t drive a car.
If he is an ordinary working guy with small to moderate assets he need not do a thing. Without a Social Security no. the IRS computers will be baffled. If he’s a dot com zillionaire, he should get professional advice with the caveat that some professionals have no idea. ( H&R block are hardly professional)
I agree with Medea’s last point (d)
@Gloria Corbett, yes Duke of Devon makes a crucial point. Your friend is not in the IRS’s system as he has no SSN. Sure they’ll get a copy of the CLN when it’s issued, but what are they going to do? They don’t know him from Adam. Unless he thinks he owes them big-time it may be better just to forget the whole tax side of things, if he feels he can live with that.
If he’s going to worry himself sick if he doesn’t do what he’s supposed to do to clear the tax side up, then filing with an ITIN application should do the trick. The IRS have neither the time nor resources to chase minnows. If he does decide to file make sure all the paperwork is sent registered/recorded delivery post and keep details of when it’s delivered. Then he’ll have done his part and will have proof of its receipt. Which hole it probably disappears into after that only the IRS knows.
@Duke of Devon, @Medea Fleecestealer
If Gloria’s friend is a minnow, all the more reason to do the remaining paperwork — if you renounce and fail to file the 8854 before the deadline, you end up becoming a covered expatriate regardless of your net worth! Why on earth would you want to risk that? That would mean needless taxes and penalties! Besides, what if Gloria’s friend wants to visit friends and family in the US? If he doesn’t make a clean break, that could lead to problems at the border.
I can understand there are some people who have their reasons for not expatriating and/or filing taxes, but Gloria’s friend has already officially renounced. At this point, he is on their radar. Backfiling taxes and FBARs and submitting the 8854 is a pain in the neck, but no more than a few days’ worth of work especially since software exists to make the process so much easier.
@WestCoaster, so what? There’s nothing the IRS can do if he does become a covered expat. They don’t know who he is, he isn’t in their system. How are they going to penalise him? Sure they may try, but how are they going to match that to an actual person? Say his name is John Smith – are US border control going to ask every John Smith who comes to America if he’s the one with an outstanding penalty against his name? The CLN may have his address on it, but John Smth’s passport doesn’t so who’s to say he’s “the one”? Do we know of any person who renounced, didn’t have an SSN, didn’t file and got fined/arrested at the border? I couldn’t find anything by googling, but probably not using the right word mix.
@Medea Fleecestealer
Just because those systems aren’t in place now, doesn’t mean they won’t be. The US is already collecting bio-metric information from some visitors and I foresee a time when we all have to provide fingerprints just to open a bank account. There is no such thing as real privacy any more; the only reason we still enjoy a modicum of it is because the technology and laws haven’t completely made it impossible…yet.
In short, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this point.