Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
CLN: Cuban Liquor Now
If you are a US citizen you follow US laws and drive on the right side of the road. Where does that leave duals in the UK?????
Do we have to consistently use US spellings even here in Canada?
Can we touch/handle “foreign” currency and use “foreign” slang (like “trousers” instead of “pants” or “lift” instead of “elevator”, or will the NSA put a mark on our records?
What about the metric system – – that isn’t something very tolerated in the USA……
Can you see my eyes rolling and the finger in my mouth?!?!?!?!?
@LM, whenever I sing “O Canada” or “God Save the Queen”, I’m grateful that I relinquished my U.S. citizenship when I became a Canadian. Otherwise I might be violating a U.S. law by singing an unpatriotic song. Is a person of dual Canadian/U.S. nationality permitted to sing both those songs and “The Star-Spangled Banner”, or none, or only the one(s) the correspond to the country they are standing in at the time? Perhaps it’s safest for a dual just to hum the shared tune of “God Save the Queen” and “My Country ‘Tis of Thee” without choosing which words to sing 🙂
Ha! I dare you to make me sing Star Spangled Banner. I know a few words of it fromhockey games. I can sing Oh Canada in English and French, though.
I am sickened to find out that I am an American citizen. I was born in California in 1955 to two Canadian parents. My Canadian birth abroad was registered in July of 1965 when my parents moved back to Canada with their four children. My parents were told that we could make an election at the age of 21 to get our American citizenship ship back if we wanted it. I made no such election. Upon reading posts on this site I understand that the US is applying a 1978 law retroactively to catch me in it’s net. I have lived in Canada since 1965, taking only a few brief vacation trips to the US. I hold a Canadian passport, I have never applied for one from the US. I do not have any ties to the US, all my family is in Canada. More worrrying is that I have never filed an income tax return in the US. A letter to the editor in the newspaper this week alerted me to my situation . I do not have a Social Security number. I am married to a Canadian, I may have found my saving grace – I did work for a provincial government corporation in the early 1980s for about 6 years but left to become a stay at home mom in 1987. Opinions?
Sorry, I mis quoted it was not a 1978 law but 1986 INA rules being applied retroactively (as stated in one of “Benedict Arnold be me” posts). I don’t remember having to swear an oath to start my job at the provincial government corporation. I believe I started the job around Nov 1981.
@heartsick, others and myself will help to answer your question.
Hold tight, its a holiday weekend in several countries…..
@ heartsick
Actually, I believe you were correct with the Oct 10, 1978 rule in your case…you are similar to WhatAmI in being registered at birth in Canada (Accidental American)…my situation was affected by the 1986 rule changes as I was Naturalized a Canadian in 1967 at the age of 10.
Having a government/crown corp. job could help. Recalling something from 30 years ago can be difficult. You may have signed a document/oath. I did and actually attended the law courts to do a group oath. However records are not kept that long (7 years for most situations). I had to resort to testimony from my supervisor to support my case.
Heartsick. Don’t change a thing. You will be fine.
@Benedict Arnold be me Is the oath part important? I am almost positive that I did not swear to anything. It was my last job so even after 30 years I still remember. The company looks after provincial royalties in the oil and gas business so unlikely an oath would even be required. I know I have my T4s from the company. I thought my situation was similar to yours in that my parents registered my birth at the border upon crossing back into Canada, I was almost 10 years old at the time. Canada has since created a law 1985 to grant citizenship at birth to people born abroad that did not register for birth abroad that is applied retroactively. I thought under Section INA 349 4A you just had to work for a government company and have the citizenship of that country. The oath part was the second choice, it was either I believe unless I am reading it wrong. I have had to absorb an awful lot of information over the last few days. My other alternative is to start the tax process, since my husband is close to retirement, we have made use of TFSA, Investment accounts, (mutual funds etc), RESP, RRSPs mostly in joint names although funded from my husband’s earnings, so all are at risk under the new rules. Because I received substantial dividend income in the last few years and no employment income, I likely owe money on back taxes and will be subject to penalties. I don’t want to risk all our savings, particularly when it is mostly my husband’s money. My sisters are in the same boat but with less tax exposure.
@ heartsick
You are correct…working for the government and having the nationality is applicable under 4A…My CLN was issued based on 4A (and not based on the oath itself)
I only mentioned the oath as you did…it helps to convey the intention…what you need to do is provide “Preponderance of Evidence”. (and be adamant, I had a lawyer backing me up and taking a final stance when the paperwork was submitted in response to their clear requirements)
You will notice that I had to deal with a reluctant DOS lawyer, so the more ammunition I had , the better. But it wasn’t until they confirmed that a STARTING DATE was what they required to issue the CLN, that I made any headway (though I know my arguments regarding the rules in existence AT THE TIME were in my favour)… My proof was submitted by my Lawyer in Affidavit form, which probably carried more weight then my original personal presentation.
It makes no sense to file taxes unless you believe yourself to be a US Citizen…I intended to go down fighting, as it was clear to me that I had lost my US Citizenship based on the rules that existed at the time (having completed the age 25 rules) and being 28 when they arbitrarily changed the rules.
What is ludicrous is the US expectation that Relinquishers should keep abreast and avail themselves of any information that would change their status after the fact…
Heartsick you state ‘my only alternative is to start the tax process’
Don’t even think about it. There is no need. Step back, take a deep breath, learn all you can and then ask yourself ‘ what exactly can they do to me?” Remember they have precious few resources. The answer is fairly obvious to those who take the time to think. There is bugger all they will do to you.
I only say I will need to file taxes if I do not have much hope of using my employment with a Provincial Crown corporation to relinquish this unwanted Citizenship. Otherwise I will need to persue renunciation which will require the filling of the taxes.. I feel a lot of pressure to get this resolved. Our assets are at risk when the new law comes into effect in July 2014. Most Canadian banks have a US presence these days so the US may have more influence over them to comply. It will be difficult to change anything on our investments without the Bank inquiring as to why we want to switch things solely to my husbands name. My husband has worked hard for his money and the US government should not be entitled to take it. Little did we know that having a joint account might be a problem. What do I do when they send an update form out and request information on citizenship? Yes I believe that I am only Canadian. Due to our Canadian Governments willingness to share our information, I feel very exposed. I intend to talk to a lawyer soon, any recommendations for Calgary? Wish I had found out about this sooner.
@heartsick, no it doesn’t necessarily. You can renounce without doing any tax filing first, I did it last year. You’ll get your CLN regardless of whether you’ve filed or not filed. You then have several options:
1) Do nothing. You left years ago and you’re not in the US tax system so there’s no way they can trace you.
2) Struggle to get a Social Security Number, which I gather is a pain in the you know where and then do the filing.
3) File with a note attached to the documents to explain why you don’t have a Social Security Number.
The easiest way is for you to do nothing. You’ll have your CLN and unless the Canadian banks become as scared as the Swiss ones all you’ll need to do is send them a copy of the CLN and they’ll be happy. Don’t travel to the US or transit through it to be on the safe side in future.
@heartsick
There are many of us here following KalC’s plan. I also thought about seeing a lawyer but then reconsidered ….why should I pay huge legal fees when I know the bottom line? If they are only going to tell me what I am suppose to do and that will bankrupt me, what is the point. If the oath situation is something that may be useful for you, I might pursue that line if possible (out of my realm) but otherwise, welcome to the bunker…you will be in good company.
I too only found out about this mess a few months ago. The ensuing google blitz almost caused my head to explode. I know exactly how you are feeling at the moment. The wonderful folks at Brock and Maple Sandbox held my hand through the hysterical part and now I have settled into anger. I have chosen to put my energies into anything the leaders of various groups are directing us to do to fight this. I will NOT change my life, aside from never going to the US again, and will not give them one bloody cent. They can put me in jail, I don’t care. If they want to fill up their prisons with retired law abiding grannies well go right ahead. I could use the rest.
@heartsick,
Our cases are actually identical. You’ve learned a lot in “a few days”. It took me 2 years to get here.
I’m a year older than you are, and I moved back to Canada a year later than you did. Both my parents were Canadian only, and I received the birth abroad certificate in 1966 when we moved back. I’m sure you know, but neither of us lived in the US long enough for our children to have any US citizenship claims and more importantly, not long enough for the US to have any citizenship claims on our children!
Be sure to read this thread carefully:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/03/20/relinquishment-of-us-citizenship-by-persons-born-dual-or-who-naturalised-in-a-foreign-country-as-a-minor/comment-page-1/#comments
The 1978 INA changes were fairly straight-forward. The 1986 changes not so much. In October 1978, there were 2 relinquishment cases that were removed, but not retroactively. These were voting in foreign elections (INA 349), and INA 350.
The removal of INA 350 was most unfortunate. It’s the one that said, in my words, “you lose your US citizenship at age 25 if you don’t move back to the US or take an oath to the US to retain it”. This is most likely what your parents were referring to when they mentioned age 21. My mother told me I would lose my US citizenship at age 24. She was closer, it was in fact age 25, or, “3 years after your 22nd birthday”. I missed this by 3 months. You missed it by over a year. Regardless, the FAM says they no longer find loss for claims of INA 350 but invite you to try if you insist. But as I said, we missed the cut-off. I have some theories as to why they don’t honour the pre-1978 laws even though they were repealed prospectively only:
– in their mind, these laws were there to strip citizenship from people who no longer deserved it. They had no notion that anybody would want to use these laws voluntarily to get rid of US citizenship.
– the supreme court decisions that led to the repeal of these laws were actually decided long before, in the 1960s. It took that long to actually change the INA.
– they thought they were fixing wrong-doing by reversing unconstitutional citizenship decisions that stripped citizenship. This was the spirit, I think, of the 1986 changes which were retrospective.
– keep in mind that until 1995, or maybe 2004, or 2010, having US citizenship wasn’t really a problem like it is now.
Anyway, since they removed voting, the only relinquishing acts left to us born-duals is treason, military service, and employment with a foreign government. Your provincial employment counts.
I have more, but will follow up with another post.
@heartsick,
Don’t worry that you have never filed US taxes. That’s a good thing. It helps demonstrate that you never considered yourself a USC. The Streamlined Filing Procedure lets people simply declare “I didn’t know I had to file”. In our cases, we lived our whole lives knowing/believing we weren’t even US citizens, let alone know of any filing requirement.
If you decide to try to get a back-dated CLN (some decide not to):
Your provincial employment is your ticket. I worked for The City in the mid-1970s.The City had no record of me and wouldn’t write an employment letter for me. I don’t have T4s going back that far. The CRA has them going back to about 1980 which wasn’t far enough for me. I finally wrote to the CPP people in Ottawa (no phone or email – it took 4 months) and got a letter. Then I took that to The City and they still would not write a letter for me because it wasn’t based on their own records. The best is a letter from the employer, and it absolutely, as @Benedict stated, must contain an exact employment start date.
There are two things consuls and consulate clerks have been saying that are dead wrong. One is that an oath is required. You said the right thing. INA 349 4A applies to us and does not require an oath. The other is that a high-level or policy-level position is required. Dead wrong. There are many clear statements about this in the FAM and DoS web pages. There are links in the thread I mentioned above.
@heartsick,
My plan for a long time was to do nothing, but the problem with that is FATCA. July 1 is only 5 weeks away and we still don’t know what we need to know, namely, if FATCA will rat out a person who chooses to do nothing and never enter the US again. It depends on your finances and your financial institutions. Yes, there are thresholds in the IGA where the FFI does not have to report you, but that’s only if they elect not to do so. Also, they can outsource the US-indicia-searching task to third parties.
Catching up with tax filing seems to be safe for people who have little assets in their name and owe little or no US tax. If your net worth is high, it can be ruinous. I have no details about the latter.
The problem with attempting to get a back-dated CLN is what to do if it is denied. Does that put you on the IRS radar? The DoS will have your name and address and the personal history that you submitted to demonstrate that you’ve lived your life a a Canadian. Do they share your file with the IRS? They certainly notify the IRS of your CLN so who’s to say they don’t notify them of your failed attempt at a back-dated relinquishment?
Assuming you can get an employment letter, your case is better than mine and my sister’s, but we have decided to apply for back-dated relinquishment. Having said that, I haven’t decided what to do if my claim is denied.
There was a time when I didn’t think that I could ignore nasty letters from the IRS if it came to that. They can be quite impressive, I’m sure. As time went on, I got so disgusted and angry with the arrogance, entitlement and hypocrisy of the US government that I think I could do it now. I can’t even buy fruit at Superstore that has a “Produced in USA” on it.
@heartsick and WhatAmi, I think it’s terrible what the US is putting you through with its CBT and now FATCA. I don’t know exactly what to suggest that you do, but have you thought about contacting your Members of Parliament to see what help they could offer? It’s conceivable that they could help in getting access to old government records, and even if they say they can’t offer help, at least it will give them more understanding of what many Canadians are going through over FATCA and the IGA.
@ WhatAmI says Thanks for your response and to all the others on this site. Without an exact date for the employment I am not sure what I can do with it. I don’t think my former employer would be able to give me a letter with an exact date now. The long wait worries me as well and I am sure that I would be in the IRS radar. The bigger issue is that my husband and I will be at substantial risk of losing a large part of our retirement saving with the FATCA rules and penalties coming into play soon. That really scares me. Also I would like to travel and even traveling over US airspace requires that our information be submitted to the US government. Also we deal with a major bank and I am sure they are prepared to send out a form for us to sign soon. I think refusal to sign will be a clear signal that something is up. We do not have small accounts due to retirement coming up soon. I am feeling a lot of pressure. It is criminal how the US is treating people like us but I don’t know how to stop it. Good luck to you and your sister. I was going to ask you what you had done but obviously you are still working on it. My sisters will have to make some decisions as well.
@heartsick,
You mentioned a Canadian citizenship law “1985” that gave citizenship to those born abroad. At first I read that as the year “1985” but I think it is the law’s title/section. I believe you are referring to the April 2009 change that among other changes gave citizenship retroactively to birth for those born outside of Canada whose mother only was Canadian. Back in the day, the father at least had to be the Canadian. You and I had both parents as Canadian for good measure. It used to be that parents had to register births within 2 years, but our parents didn’t. We got our certificates at age 10 or 12 when we moved to Canada. I never researched how that was possible, but now I know I’m not the only one to have been processed like that. 🙂
@heartsick,
I’m so sorry that you are caught up in this mess. I am in a similar situation.
I was born in the US in the 1960’s to Canadian parents and moved to Canada when I was 6 months old. I worked for the federal gov in the 1980’s. I went to the Toronto consulate in January to inform them of my past relinquishment and to request a backdated CLN. The staff person that I dealt with wasn’t familiar with Section INA 349 4A/B. She denied my request, but I asked her to send my paperwork to Washington anyway. (I provided a copy of almost everything in my employee file).
Without the support of people here at Brock – I wouldn’t have had the nerve to request that my file be sent to Washington anyway.
Mykitty
Reference the questionnaire provided by the Toronto consulate, is it particular only to Toronto?
None of the official DOS forms for renunciation or relinquishment ask for a social security number. I cannot remember mine from 30 years ago and have no intention of applying for a new one.
Should I just leave it blank or go to another consulate?
I got my CLN and cancelled blue thing last September. They also sent back copies of all the paperwork involved, embossed with the seal of the US Embassy. In Vancouver there was not social security number requested, but they did want your last US passport number (form DS4079). Its kind of intoxicating to see the embossed seals of this foreign country. Might as well be from Thailand.
@Heartsick: Are you aware Canada Revenue Agency does not and will not collect taxes or penalties for the IRS on any Canadian citizen? Canadian courts all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada have ruled IRS has no jurisdiction in Canada.
Read this information on Canadian Protections from the IRS.
http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/canadian-protections-from-irs/
I wrote that several months ago. It was originally published at The Money Guide, but when that publication disappeared, I posted it at Maple Sandbox as a resource.
Please be aware many lawyers and accountants will not tell you all of that information. In fact, one American tax lawyer personally told me he was unaware of the information, felt no obligation to learn it and felt no responsibility to share the information with Canadian clients.
With the FATCA IGA, this is all in a state of flux, but we are working together to support each other and find a resolution. Some of us are working through political channels to try to get an amendment to the FATCA Implementation Act. We are also working towards launching a legal challenge to FATCA if the amendment is not accepted.
You need to do what give you the most peace of mind. In your situation, I would do nothing.
With that said, I must clarify I am neither a lawyer not an accountant, My suggestion is simply friendly advice from someone who has spent far too much time and energy of these issues for almost three years.
You are among friends here. Take a breath. Relax. Easier said than done, I know.