Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@usxcanada
It seems you’ve limited your input here to correcting and castigating. Appreciate the former.
D Edam. George knows not of what he speaks. A CLN is a get out of the IRS trap free pass. When you have one, you ARE NO LONGER A US CITIZEN. You can take that to the bank.
Forget about the IRS . They can’t and won’t touch you in the UK. Switzerland is a special case .
The important thing is that the Canadian government is using an implicit rule that you renounce US citizen that you are no longer a US citizen for tax purposes,
I have asked people to confirm my reading of this
“My financial institution is asking if I am a U.S. person for U.S. tax purposes. What does this mean?
In general, you are a U.S. person for U.S. tax purposes if you are a U.S. resident or a U.S. citizen.
A U.S. resident would not generally be expected to include a person that has economic and social ties that are closer to Canada than the U.S.”
according to CRA you renounce you are no longer a USA citizen for tax purpose. This is based on my reading. Can someone reliable confirm with a lawyer?
They have given explicit get out of Jail cards for Green Card holders and people who renounced a long time ago,
“I hold a U.S. green card. How does this affect my tax residency?
If you are a green card holder (that is, a lawful permanent resident of the U.S.), the U.S. considers you to be a U.S. resident.
However, if you are a resident of Canada for tax purposes and do not hold U.S. citizenship, you should not identify yourself as a U.S. person to your Canadian financial institution.”
Does the agreement require Canadian financial institutions to report to the CRA on any individuals who were told that they relinquished their U.S. citizenship when they became Canadian citizens?
The agreement does not require Canadian financial institutions to report on any individuals who have relinquished their U.S. citizenship and are not residents of the U.S. ”
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/ndvdls-eng.html
In addition I do not know if the British government have sent out a similar understanding.
Please note that I have always been the biggest beat the system supporter. There is a lot of beat the system in the way the government is applying the IGA.
Does anybody realize what a 30% withholding will effect; Canadian trade, Canadian who want to invest in USA, people who want to travel to the USA. Look at the countries who have signed on with worse agreements that are not as dependent economically as USA. We export hard to move commodities.
Ask yourself a question what happened to the Swiss referendum?
Russia wants to sign an IGA but because of Ukraine USA is not allowing them to sign.
What does that tell you.
And for people who do not realize that USA is still the dominant economy and the reserve currency here is an article form Financial Times.
“China: On top of the world
By Martin Wolf and David Pilling
The country is about to eclipse the US as the largest economy but dominance is still far off ”
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/c355e0e6-d1d1-11e3-8ff4-00144feabdc0,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2Fc355e0e6-d1d1-11e3-8ff4-00144feabdc0.html%3Fsiteedition%3Dintl&siteedition=intl&_i_referer=
@USXCanada
Re: your response to Bubblebustins comment, you said: “Nutbar Brocker rumor-mongering now fixates on “new” U.S. passport requirements that vary by consular web site!”
Are you paid by the enemy or what? Rumor is spelled with a U here. Its bad enough IBS was insulted yesterday during the committee hearings, now you too. Thanks. If you think we are all nutbars here, take a hike.
@Kal C-
I bring your attention first to HMRC Updated Guidance Notes 28 Feb 2014.
5.7 Unambiguous US Place of Birth
Where the indicia found is an unambiguous US place of birth then the account
needs to be reported unless the Financial Institution obtains or currently
maintains a record of all of the following:
Next is page 24 of the UK FATCA IGA;
If any of the U.S. indicia in subparagraph B (1) of this section are
discovered in the electronic search, then the Reporting United Kingdom
Financial Institution must treat the account as a U.S. Reportable Account
unless it elects to apply subparagraph B (4) of this section and one of the
exceptions in such subparagraph applies with respect to that account.
—
Notice the language MUST TREAT and UNLESS IT ELECTS?
Under the IGA, a reporting financial institution must report a person with a US Place of Birth unless it elects further due diligence. The decision to perform further due diligence belongs to the bank NOT the customer. Thats another reason why the IGA is so bad!!
There are segments of the compliance industry out of control in the UK. Compare and contrast the questions asked on account opening amongst various firms.
Because of that I called a transnational high street bank because the online account application had no spot to say you have a CLN. But it asked country of birth.
The final response given was that this bank was electing not to do any further due diligence for those with a US Place of Birth. Hence, they will report the account to the US.
So “you can take” that CLN to at least one bank and they will not want it.
The same applies with the $50,000 limit, they have to opt in.
Hence some in the UK would consider it very prudent even if you have a CLN to perform some due diligence with whomever you are going to entrust your savings with. Otherwise you may be on a hamster wheel and getting nasty letters from the USA every year.
@WhiteKat/@Bibblebustin, That catch from the London Embassy was very important and telling.
Why? I think it does show they are taking a keen interest in back dated relinquishments.
It also shows a possible opportunity, the opportunity to relinquish “by post” partly prior to a passport renewal.
Anyways it will cement in time the latest you can claim a relinquishment.
Again, BRILLIANT and important find!!!
The US Consulate in Toronto seems to have changed its web site recently. There is now this paragraph about renunciation and relinquishment under the page titled Passports and Citizenship:
There are also some interesting things on the Frequently Asked Questions page, including the following:
Also, the on-line tool for making appointments seems to have changed. See
https://evisaforms.state.gov/acs/make_default.asp?pc=TRT
@ AnonAnon,
Thanks for the Toronto update.
I was also curious about possible changes in booking procedure at Toronto because I’d heard (rumour perhaps?) that they weren’t using the on-line tool anymore. So, I sent an e-mail to Torontopassport@state.gov this morning:
Got back a standard e-mail (robo-reply) about ACS services, with no information about how to book. When I wrote Vancouver asking how to book a renunciation appointment, I got back a very detailed robo-reply specifically about renunciation booking and procedure.
The Toronto robo-reply did say,
Used to be Toronto replied to e-mails within hours. It’s a pretty straightforward question. [UPDATE: They did reply to my e-mail within a few hours — see my comment below.]
The new on-line booking tool appears to be an extra screen or two that brings you to – the old booking tool. As for “notarial and other services,” they made 208 appointments available for each month June and July. As of now, there’s 90 left for June and 116 left for July.
If you, or anyone, has recent information on how they’re booking at Toronto (still with the on-line tool or not?), please let us know. If no one does, I’ll post when I hear something from them.
@AnonAnon
That’s a very interesting FAQ they have listed.
I wonder if all those bankers and Conservative MPs would be happy to have our duals going to Cuba for a winter vacation being charged as criminals. They’re US citizens, so they have to follow US laws even if they’ve spent their entire lives in Canada, right? That’s what they said about filing US taxes. So I guess we can assume that they’re OK with Canadian duals not traveling on a Canadian passport? And we can assume that they’re OK if a Canadian dual travels to Cuba on a Canadian passport and then is charged as a criminal by the US?
@Kathy
That’s next.
@AnonAnon
They didn’t answer the second question. What does the illegality of travelling to Cuba have to do with the question asked? They weaseled out of the answer because they cannot say that a Canadian-US citizen must enter every other country in the world with a US passport, as if US citizenship has dominance over any other!
Yes, @bubblebustin, I think they weaseled on the answer because it isn’t ok with them for U.S. citizens to travel on non-U.S. passports, even though it isn’t strictly illegal to do so.
Also, I wonder why they referred to “federal and state taxes” as laws with which U.S. citizens must comply. How do state taxes apply to U.S. citizens residing outside the U.S.??
Booking procedure at Toronto.
I just heard back from Toronto in about 3 hours. So, that’s a reasonable turn-around. Their reply is quite detailed (pretty similar to one I got from Vancouver a few months ago).
At Toronto you used to just book on-line and just show up. But it looks like they no longer are doing it that way.
Note this paragraph:
“Once you have all forms filled out and you have gathered the required evidence, please email torontopassport@state.gov to schedule an appointment. Please complete the attached questionnaire and the form DS4079 (http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf) and include both completed documents with your appointment request…. ”
FYI, this is the questionnaire they’re referring to, which is to be sent in with the 4079.
@ AnonAnon – RE State tax laws
Possibilities: One might be an owner/part-owner in a business or one might have a cottage or Florida condo that one rents out or one might be the signing POA or executor of a parent’s estate….. (thus, some income related to a particular state).
@ pacifica777 – the list of things emailed to you from TorontoPassport looks exactly like what I was sent (from the Toronto Consulate) back in January or early February this year. Once the DS 4079 was electronically sent back to them, they assigned me an appointment for about 6 weeks later. If that date had not worked, I’m sure they would have been willing to change the date. I found their responses (e.g. to questions I had when filling out the DS 4079) from Toronto to be clear and professional – – they’re just doing their job. When I went in for my Renunciation meeting, there was a lot of back and forth (hand over files & sit down in waiting room / return to kiosk and answer questions then sit down again / come back to answer another question and then pay the fee and sit down again, etc) but nothing complicated and definitely no noticable “attitude” from any of the staff. So take the time, do the forms and move on towards Renunciation Day. 🙂
I emailed completed forms that they had sent me in my initial request for appointment, on May 2 and heard back that day with an appt. set for July 8. So, I’m happy, but still nervous. As I’ve said before my U.S. passport expires July 5. I’m not renewing. I go to Chicago June 6 and I’ll use it one last time, as they frown on Canadian passport use, it seems. I don’t want to get hassled at border. If I go to U.S. in winter I’ll take any info on my waiting for my CLN.
@Moderators or Calgary411; I think the find by AnonAnon on May 21, 2014 at 2:17 pm merits consideration of a headline frontpage post. In particular the frequently asked questions, particularly the question on Cuba travel.
I think in Canada this needs to be pointed to your MPs. Will Canada enforce the US restriction on travel to Cuba of a Canadian Citizen, resident in Canada, with “clinging US nationality,” who travels on holiday to Cuba with his/her Canadian passport?
I would like to suggest a letter writing campaign bringing this to the attention of various MPs and asking if Canada will enforce this ban and aid the US Government. The reason is that it will flush out the sovereignty question.
Must you have a CLN to travel to Cuba on your Canadian Passport?
Or can you travel to Cuba on your Canadian Passport if you have a reasonable explanation of why you do not have a CLN despite having relinquished your US citizenship?
If you have an unambiguous place of birth in the USA can you travel to Cuba on your Canadian Passport at all?
Thanks, LM. I vaguely thought they’d changed the booking procedure some months ago, but I wasn’t sure. Someone mentioned to me a few days ago about booking on-line, so I thought I’d check it out. Their new procedure seems to have the advantage of making it very clear what you need to do and bring with you. I was two years ago and I also found them super, but we started getting mixed reviews this winter. Glad yours went well this spring, and I hope we start getting consistently great reviews from there once again.
How’s this:
http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/country/cuba.html
Is a dual US-Canadian citizen “under US jurisdiction? I’m sure they think so.
If you really want to go to Cuba…
You’ll find something similar to this on many travel websites:
The Cuban government welcomes Americans to visit with a passport, and Cuban customs and immigration officials know not to stamp the passports of Americans entering the country.
I’m sure I read this on a Cuban government website, but I can’t find it now.
@LM @pacifica777
I got the same in Feb this year too. Please note that you need a state issued birth certificate. I went with my hospital one and they only spoke to me “as a courtesy.” Apparently, I didn’t have the documentation to prove I was a US citizen so that I could prove that I was no longer a US citizen. How’s that for crazy?
Will be back again in June with my $100 birth certificate.
Just an added note – I got nothing but the runaround when I emailed and asked about back dated CLNs. I asked as a general statement and specifically said it wasn’t in regard to my situation – do you back date CLNs for past relinquishments. They kept saying that they would not comment on a case over email or phone and I should just book an appointment to ask. After about five emails with the same runaround, I tried the Ottawa consulate. Got the same runaround. Finally saw a back dated CLN at an information session. Thank goodness for IBS!
Prove you aren’t a US citizen when buying Cuban cigars in Canada!
@All
I’m with George on this one. Let’s press the point.
If Canada/US duals in Canada are supposed to follow US tax laws, then they should follow the no travel to Cuba laws. Just like Chinese/Canadian duals in Canada are only having one child and all Saudi/Canadian duals along with Canada/US duals under 21 in Canada aren’t drinking. Right?
@Bubblebustin
Ha, ha! Good one. This all shows how ridiculous the “well, if you’re a US citizen, you have to follow US laws no matter where you are or live” line of reasoning is.
@Bubblebustin, “Prove you aren’t a US citizen when buying Cuban cigars in Canada!”
Or buying Cuban Rum.
Tell me how sad this is?
Seriously, I warned my children to never purchase Cuban rum or cigars because even though it is lawful in thier place of residence and their dominant nationality that if they were caught by the US that they could be prosecuted and face prison. My children were shocked, absolutely shocked.