The current media narrative is anti-Trump 24-7. He is bad. And of course all those celebrities and other people are waiting in line to flee the country and renounce their citizenship. So I was contacted by a reporter of a well-known news network who is writing an article on people who are renouncing their USA citizenship because of Donald Trump. He asked me:
- If there has been an increase of traffic to isaabrocksociety.ca since the November election.
- If anyone had contacted us with questions about renouncing directly linked to Trump.
Here is my response:
There has been no uptick in traffic to our website, and no one anti-Trump has contacted me in my function at Isaac Brock. I do not predict an uptick in renunciations over Trump. People are renouncing for practical reasons. Anti-Trumpism is fanatical, but Trump has not so far caused real problems for American citizens. FATCA, citizenship taxation, the Obama enforcement of FBAR, CBT and FATCA, and the compliance condors have created real problems for so-called “Americans” abroad–especially those of us who are little older and more established financially. Trump just seems to make some American citizens really angry but has not yet substantially harmed them (at least I do not know of concrete examples).
I had one person contact me on behalf of someone who owns property here in Canada, wanting to know the tax implications of moving to Canada and how one might transfer bank assets. This person was not asking about renunciation of citizenship–just the tax implications of moving to Canada (and how to move assets). She did not know I run the Isaac Brock Society. I know her from Facebook for other reasons.
I see that one of the problems with the shrill anti-Trump narrative in the mainstream press and social media is that the wrongs done against expats have been completely ignored. When I talk about the wrongs that Obama did, I am scorned.
Trump may eventually reverse FATCA, but I do not hold out hope. Nevertheless, in the current persecution of expats Trump only continues the demonic policies of his predecessor.
Here is a reminder of why Peter Dunn relinquished his USA citizenship:
I am planning to relinquish this year–not because of Trump (who for all his celebrated piggishness,may or may not bring about the reforms promised by his party), but for all these longer-term issues.
@Petros
Very interesting that you were contacted by a reporter regarding possible renunciations due to Trump.
“Trump may eventually reverse FATCA, but I do not hold out hope. Nevertheless, in the current persecution of expats Trump only continues the demonic policies of his predecessor.”
I agree. And we need to emphasize that FATCA only makes it more difficult for homelanders to leave the USA, should they wish to do so for any reason. Carrying one’s USA tax burden across the border to start a new life in another country must be a frightening prospect. When I arrived in Canada in 2004, I was blissfully unaware of CBT and the imminent arrival of FATCA/IGAs.
If anything, the Trump administration (assuming tax reform and possible FATCA repeal) will slow the pace of renunciations. The necessity to renounce U.S. citizenship is the result of the Obama/IRS/Compliance Condor “reign of terror” on Americans abroad.
“When it’s all said and done: All Roads Lead To Renunciation!”
The Trump presidency may lead to a slow down in appointments. But here is my advice:
If you already have an appointment to formally renounce/relinquish, use it.
Petros, I disagree with: but Trump has not so far caused real problems for American citizens. FATCA, citizenship taxation, the Obama enforcement of FBAR, CBT and FATCA, and the compliance condors have created real problems for so-called “Americans” abroad–especially those of us who are little older and more established financially. Trump just seems to make some American citizens really angry but has not yet substantially harmed them (at least I do not know of concrete examples).
The fact that it isn’t on his agenda while some other non-Constitutional actions are, tells me he is no different than our change over of Prime Ministers. We continue to be harmed when Canada doesn’t protect us and others continue to be harmed as long as this US FATCA law is not revoked.
Having said that, I also do not think any uptick in renunciations is due to the current president.
Bottom line: Trump is still causing the exact same problems for us that his predecessor did.
Republicans abroad said in response to me complaining about them asking for more money for the FATCA lawsuit that they just don’t have the votes to repeat FATCA. So my hopes of Trump doing anything are looking distant.
The very best thing President Trump could do is an Executive Order to end the IGA’s . It is on Sen Rand Paul’s agenda as is the entire repeal of FATCA.
EO can be done now. ANYTIME!!
How would Petros or other Brockers know if US residents might or might not be wanting to leave the US because of Trump? That is not really within the purview of this website.
A couple of thoughts on the question:
1. For a Homelander who decides to move to Canada because of Trump, it will take a number of years of Canadian residence before they qualify for Canadian citizenship (3 to 5, I’m not sure what it is nowadays). They can’t renounce US citizenship until they become a Canadian citizen therefore if there is going to be a “Trump spike” it will be delayed by however long the current Canadian residence requirement is. We won’t know for several years by which time the landscape will have undoubtedly changed anyway.
2. Most Homelanders don’t even have a clue that US CBT exists. It isn’t until they actually leave and try to live elsewhere that they discover the full horror of this clusterf**k. They surely won’t be leaving for that reason.
3. The reason US mainstream media continue to ignore FATCA/CBT/FBAR is very simple; to them it is a non-story of very little interest either to them or their viewers because none of them are directly affected. The narrative that expats are ungrateful, treasonous, tax evading scum has been going on for so long its an uphill battle to argue otherwise. No journalist wants to take that on. Face it folks, we are seen as an unappealing minority group undeserving of any sympathy whatsoever.
4. I agree. If you have an appointment, show up and shed US citizenship. If you don’t have one, book one ASAP. Trump (and Congress) seem to have a problem actually getting anything done. I wouldn’t pin my hopes on the repeal of FATCA or a switch to RBT anytime soon.
How about being influenced in the reverse direction? Is anyone who was about to renounce now holding back due to now being confident that, with a Republican president and Congress, they will stick to their platform and repeal FATCA/CBT?
Is anyone now regretting having renounced because they now feel it won’t have been worth it if the Republican president and Congress stick to their platform and repeal FATCA/CBT?
@ Dash
Good questions. I have heard that some renouncers want legislation that would return their US citizenship as it was renounced under duress.
Obviously I am not in that category and would sell mine to the lowest bidder. The president has said anyone who burns the US flag should have their citizenship revoked. He also said he is a man of his word ( or so many words???) so I assume he meant this.
Someone hand me a flag and match please and thank you.
@Ginny, Yes, the continuation of Obama’s policies harms expat Americans and many others–so much I concede in my final paragraph. I should have said really that Trump has not harmed US citizens in the Homeland (that I know of)–to the point where it would cause a significant number of renunciations.
@star, I address the issue of whether Isaac Brock has more traffic since the election and it does not. We tend to have traffic when people are asking questions about how the hell they can get rid of this property of the USA tattoo. As for the purview of the website, I will have a chat with the editor to see if he agrees with the pertinence of the post.
@Maz57, you make some good points. I should probably tell the reporter to read the comments here. The delay of several years is an extremely important point. You cannot just renounce your citizenship like that, unless you buy citizenship at one of the countries that sell citizenship. Few Americans are going to trade their US citizenship for Belize or Kitts and Nevis.
@ Petros
Thanks. Plus I’d move to Belize in a heartbeat. Lovely country and the best scuba diving.
@Canadian Ginny: I would move to Belize. But I am keeping my Canadian citizenship.
[maz57:] “They can’t renounce US citizenship until they become a Canadian citizen…”
They can, but it would be foolish to do so IMHO. But your larger point holds.
[Dash1729:] “Is anyone who was about to renounce now holding back due to now being confident that, with a Republican president and Congress, they will stick to their platform and repeal FATCA/CBT?”
In my case my delay is caused by my desire to travel to the USA for a wedding, without paying the several hundred dollars for a visa. As for Trump, “Put not your trust in princes.”
@Petros: I think your post is pertinent. I just question the logic of the journalist.
Personally, I know of two US-resident dual citizens (US/European) who are moving back to their European countries. In both cases their work in the US is coming to a natural pause and they need to either start new work contracts or leave. They’ve decided to leave because they can’t stomach Trump and are fearful. Their taxes are simple, FBARs up to date etc etc so usual Brock issues don’t loom hugely for them (though I know they think CBT is criminal).
@Dash, Ginny: If the USA beg me to take my citizenship back I would not. I am not gullible like Charlie Brown. You can pry my CLN out of my cold dead fingers.
@star, If some are repatriating (leaving the US), or even moving to Canada (to occupy a summer home, e.g.), that would not necessarily cause a spike in traffic at this website. So I stand by my prediction that few will renounce their citizenship because of Trump. That is not the same as saying no one will leave the USA because they do not like Trump. We are seeing an uptick in frostbitten rejected refugees from the USA coming here to Canada as well.
@Petros
You popped that reporter’s story that his was going to run with: Trump causing people to abandon ship. Very nice that they reached out to you.
Any chance they will run a story along the lines you mentioned?
Even if “Trump” were put in this way: ‘Trump causing people to hold off citizenship renunciations.’ That would not fit the anti-Trump favored theme by the MSM.
@Peter/Petros
And you could not pry my Canadian citizenship out of my cold hands either. Taking Blaze’s advice, I accessed my file from Canada Immigration as it then was called. I did not know this or recall this but apparently, my father wrote to them decades ago to confirm my citizenship at birth. The official cited statute and section confirming I was a Canadian citizen at birth as both my parents were born in Canada. I now have that document in my files. Before that I would get the occasional Canadian border officer who would ask if I had proof I was landed- that was back in the day long long before a passport was required to cross the border and all I had was my tattered birth certificate but always said I was Canadian. I was young and didn’t know I should have been ” landed”. Of course, I came to find out later that would have been redundant and legally impossible.
Finding that out always made me happy. I was born a Canadian. That’s enough in my opinion.
I claim nothing more and nothing less. The USG can go pound sand, salt or any other surface of their choice.
I could see that the Trump could trigger some procrastinators into expatriating sooner rather than later, but is unlikely to push anyone who wasn’t already thinking about it into expatriation: the bottom line is probably insignificant as Petros suggests. But his opinion that “Anti-Trumpism is fanatical” is way off base, at least when compared to the fanaticism of the numerous Pro-Trumpists generating thousands of abusive messages including ones threatening rape or death. Also off base is the statement that Trump has not so far caused real problems for American citizens. There are many examples of real problems being created for American citizens who have parents, spouses and other family members who are undocumented.
In Republican Platform we get RBT
Not heard the Don speak of it yet / fingers crossed
Thus he could STOP renunciations
Good publicity for him
Since TRUMPS administration renunciations have DECREASED by 90 %
@Petros
We should not overlook that fact that many Americans born in America are born with another citizenship, but completely unaware of it (accidental Canadians, for example), making it very easy to renounce US citizenship if they were to scratch the surface.
Of course, the irony is that the one they wish to flee holds the potential to allow them to freely do so, as does the country to which they hold the alternate citizenship should they wish to return.