110 thoughts on “Almost no U.S. citizenship renunciation appointments left during 2016 in Dublin; other U.S. embassies also putting up various roadblocks”

1. @Don
   Well at least they have a sense of humor: check out the “Spawtlight: The Horrible Truth About Boston” clip for a chuckle or two.

   @Eric
   Thanks for providing the original source. I think that Armstrong also somewhat mischaracterized the factors leading to outward migration. The common factor is growing social instability and poor economic prospects, particularly in the weaker countries of the Eurozone.

2. @Eric, thank you for elaborating on the Armstrong article. Yes, quite frequently Armstrong does not bother citing his sources so there is no way to know where he gets his info, although much of it is quite interesting.
   Your own input, on the other hand, is always impeccable. Thank you!

3. I was looking at some of the Asian consulate pages. I noticed that the Singapore, Hong Kong, and Myanmar (and possibly many other) consulate pages state that priority will be given to bonafide residents of those jurisdictions. Does this imply that already they’re feeling pressure from consulate-shoppers looking for shorter waiting times?

4. My european tax accountant told me that she has some clients with US taint and ALL of them are seeking to lose it.

5. After what my tax accountant told me ( she said ALL of them were seeking to lose US citizenship), I think one can assume that anybody who lives in a stable country will get rid of US citizenship. Especially when one sees the injustices in double taxation mounting. Soon, there will be no expats left except perhaps those who are offshore for short periods of time. I wonder what this means in REAL numbers not just of renunciations but the population of expats left….and if this does happen – what use will FATCA be in the future with apparently very few left abroad to tax?

6. And will CBT still be viable with not much left to collect but such high costs to implement?

7. @Polly Good point but of course these guys don’t care about the future. It’s all about who they pander to now and protecting the “Big important guys now”.

8. @Cheryl
   Yes- but maybe FATCA and CBT will implode all on their own when there are ever fewer expats to tax? I am assuming that the clients my tax accountant mentioned either found out lately, or are waiting to gain another passport before dumping US citizenship. But she said they ALL are wanting to give it up. This trend is becoming ever larger, it seems to me, which was something I didn’t really expect. I thought it would be some and then level out but it seems to be increasing – so what if it gets to the point of being really really MASSIVE? Will they try to come up with new laws to punish those who have renounced? Will they try to make it against the law to even do so? Will they keep appointments to a trickle so it doesn’t happen all at once? And then what will the future bring for laws to collect taxes when there are no expats anymore, except maybe a handful? And/or if those expats left don`t have the income to matter much in what America hopes to collect? Maybe in 5 years time, there will no longer even be 7 million expats out there but far FAR less? Surely the kids will abdicate when they turn 18 and can, if they live in a stable country like Europe or Canada. It seems to me that renouncing is even increasing the more rabid congress becomes. And if information is shared by the banks- then all the more incentive for many to renounce as well. It could become a tsunami? Why keep these laws then, if they have little affect on tax revenue in the future? I think what I am trying to say is: maybe America will give up FATCA and CBT all on its own if there are hardly any left to tax abroad? If it becomes so costly to implement and they cannot brag gaining those billions they claim to get now (which are mainly penalties anyway…). What when the river runs dry?

9. The US has made it pretty clear that they’d rather have taxpayers than citizens.

10. I don’t know. I guess we can hope.

11. Well, when I do the math, (7,ooo,ooo expats divided by 5,000 renunciations per year) I come up with about 1,400 years to run out of expats. Unless they start doing mass renunciations I don’t see FATCA going away any time soon.

    The US doesn’t care about the cost because it doesn’t have to pay for it. And as far as the US getting rid of old laws goes, that rarely happens. (And it seems the stupider the laws are the less likely they are to get rid of them.) I think they like to hold old laws “in reserve” just in case they want to “ambush” somebody in the distant future.

12. @maz57

    You’re assuming that any expat who dies is replaced with a new one. The question is, how will the knowledge about CBT affect the US’s outward migration and overall expat numbers?

13. @Maz
    IF that number is correct. But it is also a matter of being informed, and I think it has taken quite a while for people to really know what is going on. I spoke with a doctor the other day who told me that her bank had found out about her US citizenship….. now in 2016 even though FATCA was signed into law in 2010. Thats another awakening that many people are going to get now. We at Brock have known for quite a while- but now the shit might just hit the fan and then maybe many many more will jump ship? And it seems to me that it is especially those who have not lived-in america for decades or have few ties who were so ill-informed until now. There might be a huge surge, no?

14. “I wonder what this means in REAL numbers not just of renunciations but the population of expats left….and if this does happen – what use will FATCA be in the future with apparently very few left abroad to tax?”

    The same as the Berlin wall meant for the former East Germany.

15. @All. The only thing I did is punch a few numbers into my desktop calculator. I have no idea how accurate they might or might not be. If the US insists on limiting the number of available appointments (a reasonable assumption) the point is that it will take many years to run out of expats. I could be off by an order of magnitude and it would still take 140 years.

    We don’t really know how many expats there are. We don’t really know how many renunciations they process each year. We don’t know how many have a heart attack and immediately die when they have their OMG moment. We don’t know how many will find out about this, decide they are stuck for good in the US, and never leave. Or find out about this, hide their US-ness, and live happily outside the US forevermore. So any numbers, not just mine, are extremely uncertain at best.

    Norman has got the right idea. Where there is injustice people eventually find a way to get around it.

16. @Polly, “I spoke with a doctor the other day who told me that her bank had found out about her US citizenship….”

    That statement literally brought tears to my eyes. I am saddened when brethren are discovered…

    @maz57, the numbers of expats will simply dry up. No one in their right mind will register a child. If you are a USC born overseas you will blend back into the fog and disregard your past. If you were born in the USA but have ambiguous national identity documents you will also go back into the mist.

    I@All, I used to tell my children to thank their grandparents for sending them USA T-shirts and then told them wearing such shirts on the streets might make them a terror target. Today I tell my children never to admit to where they were born, their parents nationality or where family is from. My mind is filled with joy when I hear them speaking in the local accent something I will never acquire.

17. @George “Today I tell them…” Think about that. How can they possibly not see the damage they are doing to their own nation! It is astonishing to me. Impossible to deal with such a mentality.

18. @Cheryl, if you know from what/where I came from you would understand fully why that pains me so greatly.

    Because of our rightful nationality that being the nationality held by my family for centuries, we are fortunate to have identity documents that are ambiguous and allow all of us to blend into the mist. The kids have perfected a native accent as well having lived most of their known lives outside the “homeland.”

    In one sense I am glad that I was able to direct them to blend in…..

    I have asked them what will those of your generation do in countries where blending in might not be possible? They say those young people will largely flagrantly disobey the laws of ANY foreign power!

    Sadly this does harken back to the nuremberg laws….

19. It’s all just so sad and unnecessary but I agree with your kids. They will have to come and get me. I will not submit. We’ll see in the end what happens.

20. I’m not sure how long this will work…

    http://talkobamato.me/synthesize.py?speech_key=301d91fa2d795d1be5cf5e99962cc787

21. I sent a query over a week ago to the Sydney ACS unit asking how long it would take to get a renunciation appointment there. I finally got a response this morning. They sent me instructions on how to get an appointment, but did not answer my question about how long it takes. (I’ve asked them again – will report back if I get a reply)

    While the embassy website (linked in the post above) seems to indicate that there will be two interviews, the instructions they sent say there will only be one (though you can organize to discuss your renunciation with a consular officer in advance if you wish). In order to set up an appointment they require you to email documentation of your US status and your other citizenship. You can include a statement of your reasons for renouncing if you wish. They sent links to DS-4080 and DS-4081 – no mention of DS-4079. They state that it can take up to 6 months to get approval from the Department of State in Washington.

22. Just heard back from the Sydney consulate — they are making appointments in May at the moment (so 2-3 weeks).

23. Violinist Kang Dong-suk talks a bit about renouncing US citizenship & getting South Korean citizenship back in an interview published today (in Korean):
    http://news1.kr/articles/?2668143

    He renounced back in 2015. Article includes a paragraph about the $2350 fee, which Kang describes as “a rather large fine”. Says the whole deal took him about 4 months, including the wait time between the two interviews. (You won’t be surprised to learn that no one by his name has shown up in the Federal Register). Incidentally, Kang is 62 years old and has been living in South Korea since 2003. Under Nationality Act Article 10(2)(4), seniors (i.e. age 65 and older) are exempt from the requirement give up foreign citizenship after restoring South Korean citizenship, but he didn’t want to wait three years so he could be a dual citizen. I.e. it’s pretty clear this isn’t just a case of wanting to restore South Korean citizenship, but wanting to get rid of U.S. citizenship as well.

24. “He renounced back in 2015. […] Says the whole deal took him about 4 months, including the wait time between the two interviews. (You won’t be surprised to learn that no one by his name has shown up in the Federal Register).”

    Was it 4 months from the time of requesting an appointment until the time of the second interview, or 4 months from the time of requesting an appointment until getting the CLN? If he doesn’t have a CLN yet, that could be one reason (besides more famous reasons of course) for not appearing yet in the Liberty List.

    By the way, the next thing to sell out is going to be plane tickets from Canada to South Korea ^_^ Regardless of which meaning that 4 months has, Canadians have this extra chance to renounce US citizenship before the end of the year.

25. We were just denied renunciation appointments in Auckland because we live in Australia, not New Zealand. We have to fly to a consulate anyway – Auckland is not really that far out of our way. Has anyone else been denied an appointment like this?