Somewhere out there on the Intertubes, yet another native-born U.S. citizen is spreading rumours that it’s impossible to get a U.S. work visa after giving up U.S. citizenship. We already discussed in a previous March 2013 post that this is untrue; the article I translated then gave examples of ex-citizens who’d renounced as recently as 2011 and had been able to move back to the United States.
That article also claimed it’s probably impossible these days to re-naturalise after giving up citizenship. However, even further back in December 2011, in an article I missed at the time, the World Journal (a Chinese-language newspaper in the U.S.) interviewed three people who claimed to have done precisely that in the mid-2000s. (As Phil Hodgen has previously pointed out, the IRS even has regulations to handle the question of exit taxation against a person who expatriates twice, though probably that occurs more often when both of the expatriations — or at least one or the other — consist of green card abandonment rather than giving up citizenship.)
There’s two catches. First, all the people who moved back to the U.S. and stated they’d re-naturalised are Taiwanese politicians, who could truthfully claim that they’d only renounced U.S. citizenship to comply with Taiwan’s laws, not because they’re a bunch of radical tax-evading money-laundering drug-dealing terrorists who idolise a violent anti-American militant. Furthermore, ex-citizens don’t enjoy any special immigration privileges; the three interviewees were able to get green cards so easily only because they had U.S. citizen spouses or children, and they still had to wait to apply for naturalisation like any other immigrant.
Overview
放棄美籍 再復籍不難 |
Easy to re-naturalise after giving up U.S. citizenship |
| http://la.worldjournal.com/bookmark/16719776-%E6%94%BE%E6%A3%84%E7%BE%8E%E7%B1%8D-%E5%86%8D%E5%BE%A9%E7%B1%8D%E4%B8%8D%E9%9B%A3 | |
| 中華民國總統選戰白熱化，親民黨副總統參選人林瑞雄是否放棄美國籍而擁有參選資格，引起矚目。台灣也對公職人員擁有美籍窮追猛打，但實際上放棄美籍可能只是一種「政治遊戲」和表態，日後要恢復美籍並不困難；可以說，台灣很多人都被這種國籍認同忽悠了。 | The race for president of the Republic of China is turning white-hot, and the question of whether or not People First Party presidential candidate Lin Ruey-shiung gave up his U.S. citizenship and is qualified to stand for election is attracting a lot of attention. Taiwan has fiercely cracked down on public employees holding U.S. citizenship, but in practical terms this is nothing more than a “political game”. Later on, it won’t be difficult for him to restore his U.S. citizenship; you could say that many people in Taiwan have been tricked by national identity. |
For what it’s worth, Lin Ruey-shiung showed up in the Q1 2012 published expatriates list, about six months after the above article was written. Appearing alongside him was fellow Taiwan politician Kuan Chung-ming, who should have renounced a long time ago back when he was on the board of directors of the ROC Central Bank, but didn’t. Homelanders of course focused on a tiny number of well-known Homeland whales in that list, while ignoring the far-more-numerous and utterly unknown people who just wanted to live their ordinary lives outside the United States. Google some names and you’ll find logistics managers, university professors, and even some young Singaporeans just starting out in their careers.
Green card through immediate relatives
| 依美國法律，放棄美籍後只要配偶或子女仍擁有美籍，再度入籍不困難，過去不乏有人遊走台灣法律邊緣，提出棄籍證明後不久即在美重新申請綠卡。但也有過來人說，棄籍代價大，因為之後再度申請綠卡並獲准後，每次進入美國海關仍容易引起官員質疑，往往被叫到小房間盤問一、兩小時，須費心解釋。有人還曾被戴上手銬，深感屈辱。 | Under U.S. law, after you’ve given up your citizenship, as long as your spouse or your children retain citizenship, it’s not difficult to naturalise again. In the past, some people skirted around the edges of Taiwan’s laws by showing proof of giving up U.S. citizenship and then, not long after, applying to get a U.S. green card anew. However, some people who have done it say that the price of giving up U.S. citizenship is high, because after their green cards were approved, every time they went through U.S. customs they’d raise the suspicions of the officials, and often they were called into the back room for questioning for an hour or two and made to give explanations. One even ended up in handcuffs, which left him feeling deeply insulted. |
| 過來人說，只要配偶或子女擁有美國公民身分，「前美籍公民」重新申請綠卡，與之後申請入籍時，只要能說出正當棄籍理由，不致被移民局質疑。但若在美國舉目無親，除非透過投資或特殊人才等移民管道，否則「前公民」並未享有恢復美籍的優勢，有時反而較麻煩。 | People who have done it say, as long as the spouse or children still have U.S. citizenship status, the “former citizen” can apply for a green card, and later on when they apply to naturalise, they just need to be able to give a legitimate reason for having given up citizenship, in order not to raise the immigration authorities’ suspicions. However, if you don’t have relatives in the U.S., unless you can go through immigration routes like investment or special talents, a “former citizen” won’t enjoy any advantages in restoring U.S. citizenship, and in contrast it can sometimes make things even harder. |
Unlike Taiwan, South Korea, or the United Kingdom, the U.S. has no accelerated procedure for restoration of citizenship. Rather, ex-citizens must go through the same green card & naturalisation process as other aliens. However, if you’re married to a U.S. citizen, that process is greatly abbreviated.
Diaspora voting and representation
| 曾於十多年前返台擔任僑選國大代表的華人說，當時為了馬上拿到美國簽證，前往鄰近台灣的第三國的美國領事館填表及宣誓放棄美籍，美國護照當場被剪壞退還，同時獲臨時棄籍證明，六個月後才獲美國務院的正式證明。但在台灣宣誓為國大代表時，當時臨時棄籍證明仍被接受。唯被責成日後須補上正式棄籍證明。 | An ethnic Chinese man who went back to Taiwan more than a decade ago to serve as a diaspora representative said, at the time, in order to get a U.S. visa quickly, he went to a U.S. consulate in a third country near Taiwan to fill out forms and swear the oath of renunciation of U.S. citizenship, his U.S. passport was cut up and returned to him on the spot, and he received a temporary proof of renunciation of citizenship, but did not get the official proof issued by the U.S. State Department until six months later. However, when he went back to Taiwan to swear his oath of office as a representative, they accepted the temporary proof, and was just told to provide the official proof later. |
I’ll discuss the history of what I’ve translated here as “diaspora representatives” in more detail in a future post, but here’s the 10,000-metre overview: six seats in the Legislative Yuan are reserved for “diaspora representatives”. However, these are not filled based on actual diaspora voting, neither by the “old diaspora” (briefly mentioned last time: overseas Chinese who retained allegiance to the old ROC and are still considered nationals by Taipei, but lack “rights of citizenship” in Taiwan and generally have never lived there) nor the “new diaspora” (expats who are actually from Taiwan, and their kids). Rather. the seats are assigned to party lists proportionally based on the election results in Taiwan; the parties fill the lists with members of the diaspora (usually, the “new diaspora”).
The Kuomintang once hoped to implement a system of diaspora electoral constituencies resembling what France has today, but for various reasons, their plans never came to fruition. Still, the current system in Taiwan at least gives some members of the diaspora a direct voice in the legislature. In contrast, the U.S.’ byzantine system arbitrarily splits up the diaspora based on states where they lived long ago or where their parents once lived, denies the vote to those who never lived in the U.S. and who ended up assigned to states which don’t bother extending the vote to the second generation of the diaspora, and also denies the right to stand for election by requiring you to be an inhabitant of a state in order to get elected.
In any case, this is the kind of job for which the three men discussed later in the article gave up their U.S. citizenship.
Suspected of identity theft?
| 有人在台灣向有關方面遞出棄籍正式證明後不久，由於妻小仍定居美國，且每年返台時間不超過100天，為免返美不方便，其實不久後又以美國公民妻子眷屬名義申請綠卡，很快又擁有綠卡。但之後每次進入美國海關就被官員質疑最初的棄籍動機，甚至曾被懷疑是否涉嫌不法，有一次還被載上手銬盤問。 | One man, not long after submitting his formal proof of release from citizenship to the authorities in Taiwan, because his wife and kids were still settled in the U.S. and didn’t spend even 100 days a year in Taiwan, in order to avoid inconvenience in returning to the U.S., not long afterwards applied for a dependent green card again through his U.S. citizen wife, and soon he had his green card again. However, afterwards, every time he passed through U.S. customs he’d be questioned by officials on his motivations for giving up citizenship, was even suspected of being involved in illegal activity, and one time ended up getting put in handcuffs and taken for interrogation. |
Though I’ve previously written about known examples of U.S. government officials harassing ex-citizens, even I have to admit it’s fair for a Customs & Border Patrol officer to be suspicious of a person who renounced U.S. citizenship and then shows up at a point of entry holding a U.S. passport. CBP probably jumped to the conclusion that such a person might be an identity thief rather than a genuine re-naturalised U.S. citizen. Since the former are far more common than the latter, this seems like a reasonable mistake to make, at least once.
Of course, since ex-citizens who obtained CLNs are specially flagged in State Department & CBP computers, cases of identity theft against them are all easily detected. The bigger danger comes from identity theft against accidental Americans who have not obtained CLNs. And under FATCA, this kind of identity theft is going to increase drastically: banks with poor security are sending threatening letters to — and gathering up data from — accidentals who have no practical connection to the U.S. and have never held its passport. Some of these poor folks are now struggling to apply for Social Security numbers for the first time to comply with the “Internal” Revenue Code.
The vast majority of them will use their newly-minted SSN for nothing else besides writing it at the top of IRS forms; they will not notice if someone steals it and uses it to obtain credit, or social services, or even a U.S. passport under their name. And if Homelanders are very lucky, the identity thieves who steal these accidental Americans’ data from insecure FATCA-ed banks will sell the data only to economic migrants who want to work in the U.S., not violent extremists who want to attack it.
Stupid rumours
| 這位華人說，雖在1997年申請恢復居留身分，並取得綠卡，且每年在美申報所得稅，但由於坊間「非土生土長者一旦棄籍，復籍將被刁難」說法甚囂塵上，因此按兵不動不敢申請恢復入籍。直到2004年有華人律師鼓勵他不要害怕，才放膽一試。結果面試時被要求解釋當初棄籍理由，他如實以告，並稱家人都在美國希望重做「美國人」，才獲核准入籍。 | This ethnic Chinese man stated, in 1997 he applied to restore his residence status again, obtained a green card, and filed income taxes in the U.S. every year. However, he’d heard rumours flying around like dust, with people saying that “if you’re not born and raised here, once you give up citizenship they’ll make it hard for you to get it back out of spite”, and so he decided to let it be, not daring to apply for re-naturalisation. This went on until 2004, when an ethnic Chinese lawyer encouraged him not to worry and just give it a try. The result: during the interview they demanded he explain his reasons for giving up citizenship in the first place. He stated truthfully that his family members were all in the U.S. and hoped for him to be an “American” again, and in the end he received approval for naturalisation. |
Stupid rumours with no basis in fact — whether spread by word of mouth or by ignorant people on the Internet or by famous newspapers — have real consequences. There’s simply not enough evidence to decide whether naturalised or native-born Americans face more suspicion in the extremely-rare event they try to get green cards or reapply for citizenship. The number of recent re-naturalisation applicants is tiny; below I’ve listed all the cases of which I’m aware. (This list includes only people who went through the process of obtaining a green card somehow, not people who were able to have their relinquishments reversed.)
When former Queen of Sikkim-turned-refugee Hope Cooke Namgyal tried to get a private bill restoring her U.S. citizenship in 1976, Congresscritters angry at her renunciation pushed for the bill to be amended to grant her only a green card. The bill eventually passed in that form (see 90 Stat. 2976); once she’d held the green card for five years she apparently was able to naturalise again without any trouble, according to a 1981 article in Mademoiselle.
Margaret Randall also faced difficulties in having her U.S. citizen son sponsor her for a green card, but as far as I can see from the extensive opinion in Randall v. Meese, 854 F.2d 472 (D.C. Cir., 1988), the INS’ complaints about her were based not on her former U.S. citizenship but on the pro-Communist political positions she expressed in her published writings, which they asserted made her inadmissible under the former 8 USC § 1182(a)(28)(G)(v). Congress repealed that ground of inadmissibility in the middle of Randall’s legal battle, and she eventually obtained the green card she sought.
Other returnees apparently faced less official opposition, for example Elizabeth Taylor, who renounced U.S. citizenship in 1967, later got a green card, and applied for re-naturalisation in 1977.
Concrete examples, with names
| 目前定居洛杉磯、曾在1990年代末及2000年代初返台從政的前新黨僑選國大代表與立委營志宏，前國民黨僑選國大代表孫英善，以及民進黨僑選國大代表胡維剛都坦言，當初返台出任民選公職，曾依中華民國法律規定放棄美籍。但結束官職返美與家人團聚後，為了方便，又申請恢復美國籍。 | New Party former diaspora representative Ying Chih-hung, former Kuomintang diaspora representative Sun Ing-shan, and Democratic Progressive Party former diaspora representative Hu Wei-kang, who all now live in Los Angeles and had earlier gone back to Taiwan in the late 1990s and early 2000s to participate in politics, stated bluntly that they gave up their U.S. citizenship as required by Republic of China law when they first went back to Taiwan to take up elected public positions, but after leaving office they went back to the U.S. to rejoin their families, and for convenience applied to get their U.S. citizenship back. |
| 為美執業律師的營志宏及胡維剛說，恢復美籍只要符合要求依照程序並不困難。配偶或子女是美國公民，申請綠卡無配額限制，端視移民局作業速度。目前最快三個月即可獲綠卡。若以公民子女父親名義拿綠卡，之後五年只要在美住滿兩年半，且中間離境不超過一年，即可申請入籍。若以公民妻子配偶名義拿到綠卡，之後三年中有一半時間住在美國，且離境不超過一年，也可申請入籍。 | Hu Wei-kang and Ying Chih-hung, both U.S. lawyers, stated that regaining their U.S. citizenship only required adhering to the requirements, which was not difficult at all. Their spouses and children were U.S. citizens, meaning they could apply for green cards without a quota, and were quickly approved by the immigration authorities. At present you can get a green card in as quickly as three months. If you get a green card through your citizen children, and spend at least two-and-a-half years out of the following five years in the U.S., not leaving during that period for more than one year, you can apply for naturalisation. If you get a green card through your citizen spouse, and spend half of the following three years’ time in the U.S., without leaving for more than one year, you can also apply for naturalisation. |
All three of these reports of renunciation appear to be confirmed by Federal Register entries (not surprising, since the Federal Register expatriation list was generally pretty complete up until the mid-2000s), and other sources suggest that the above-mentioned individuals indeed lived in California after the dates of those entries.
A profile on the Legislative Yuan’s website gives the English name of Ying Chih-hung (營志宏) as Levi C. Ying. The name Levi Chih-hang [sic] Ying showed up in the Q2 1997 “published expatriates” list. A May 2013 World Journal obituary states that Ying Chih-hung was living in the Los Angeles area. An obituary on the website of an Alhambra funeral home shows a person named Levi Ying resembling that in the Legislative Yuan & World Journal photos, and lists the date of his passing as 29 April 2013.
The 2012 yearbook of the National Taiwan University Alumni Association of Southern California lists a member by the Chinese name of Sun Ing-shan (孫英善) and the English name of Albert Ing S. Sun, who graduated in 1959. The name Albert Ing-shan Sun showed up in the same Q2 1997 expat honour roll as Levi Ying. In January 2014, when the World Journal interviewed Sun Ing-shan about the death of his former legislative colleague Chai Trong-rong (蔡同榮), Sun was mentioned as living in La Habra Heights.
A lawyer in Monterey Park is included in a commercial directory under the English name Wendell K. Hu, with the name in Chinese being given as Hu Wei-kang (胡維剛). The California State Bar website lists a Wendell K. Hu as a member in active status with an office address in Monterey Park. The name Wendell K. Hu showed up in in the much-delayed Q1 2001 list.
An immigration lawyer chimes in
| 移民律師許俊良說，移民法迄未限制自願放棄綠卡或公民者，日後重新申請綠卡以及恢復入籍的可能性。但重新申請綠卡，不得有道德瑕疵或淪喪情況。道德瑕疵指曾因觸犯聯邦重罪被定罪，並被判入獄一年以上。道德淪喪最常見的是指涉及家庭暴力，並被定罪。 | Immigration lawyer Sheu Jiunn-liang stated, immigration law does not at the moment place any limits on people who voluntarily give up green cards or citizenship, or on the possibility of later on applying for a green card again or regaining citizenship. However, if you’re applying for a green card again, you cannot have moral turpitude or deficiency. This moral turpitude refers to conviction for federal crimes resulting in a prison sentence of more than one year. Moral deficiency most commonly refers to involvement in domestic violence which resulted in a conviction. |
I may have lost something in translation here: “道德瑕疵” and “道德淪喪” are both possible translations of “moral turpitude”, a term of art in U.S. immigration law. Conviction for a “crime of moral turpitude” is one ground for deportation, under 8 USC § 1227(a)(2)(A)(i); conviction for a crime of domestic violence is another such ground, under 8 USC § 1227(a)(2)(E), but as far as I know the law doesn’t use “moral deficiency”, “moral wickedness”, or any similar term of art to refer to the latter category.
In any case, it’s good to see that Mr. Sheu, unlike most immigration lawyers interviewed on the subject of renunciation, limits his discussion to well-known and clearly-enforced grounds of deportation or inadmissibility, and doesn’t try any scaremongering about the long-unenforced and probably-unenforceable-and-unconstitutional Reed Amendment.
Conclusion
One thing that struck me when reading this article: it was mentioned twice that the people in question applied to get their citizenship back “for convenience”. It didn’t appear to be a matter of identity or loyalty. Patriots might be offended, but I think that’s as it should be: nationality is a legal relationship between you and a government. Your emotional relationship to society is something else entirely. And you’re lying to yourself and other people if you think one of those relationships is either a necessary or sufficient condition for the other.
As it’s been said around here before (I believe by USCitizenAbroad): immigrants to the U.S. get U.S. citizenship so they can get on with their lives, and emigrants from the U.S give up their U.S. citizenship for the exact same reason. And the three immigrants-turned-emigrants-turned-immigrants-again in this article did both.
I don’t believe that there is any specific impediment to re-naturalizing after giving up US citizenship but the whole process–for many people–is long enough that from a practical point of view most people would not go through it again. My own case is an outlier but it took me 24 years from when I moved to the US to when I naturalized–not something I’m likely to do twice in my lifetime.
Yes, some can get a green card a second time easily and relatively quickly because they have immediate family members who are US citizens. However, since many Brockers are renouncing specifically for the purpose of avoiding infecting immediate family members with the “US taint” a fast track green card is probably not in their future.
Seems to me this thread isn’t getting much action because hardly anybody here can fathom wanting to get back in the system after the fears, terrorisation, and the hardship of trying to get out!
@Polly, that’s probably true though I’m sure there are some who may suffer ambivalence after having done so, especially those with immediate family still in the U.S. Take my case, for example: I renounced to be able to lead a normal life where I live and protect my British spouse. However, would I still feel the same if I we’re widowed with no children and with still enough here ahead to build sufficient years towards Medicare?
My father asked me this very question, which seemed reasonable enough. It seems to me that if my husband went upstairs before me that I’d be in a quandary because though most of my friends are here in the U.K.,all my blood relatives are in the U.S.A. as we never had children. As much as I love England, I don’t feel that I will ever be fully assimilated because I was already fully grown when I immigrated here. I am accepted but not fully. I will always be an outsider.
And especially as I become old and frail, I may regret not being g able to be near family because in matters of life and death and caring for the elderly, blood is thicker than water.. I will probably wind up remaining in the UK for the reminder of my life anyhow, though I would be relieved if restoration of U.S. citizenship we’re at least offered to me as a goodwill gesture.
@moanerlisa
Interesting case, yours. I`m sure there are others.
I left America as a child and have lived in Europe ever since to european born parents- so the draw to America is not strong at all. I call this “home” and feel foreign in America. But I have an accent in my daily language. Strange world- not feeling 100% here nor there. But I ended up feeling more foreign in America than here. Like I don`t understand the jokes which oftentimes have to do with the daily media. The slang, the trends that are so important made me feel somehow out of touch. Basically I don`t understand the mentality anymore. Very possibly, I`d understand a brit`s emotional world sooner than an american`s.
Is Lindsay Lohan eventually going to have to renounce like Tina Turner?
She seems settled in London and staying out of trouble since arriving there about a year ago.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/lindsay-lohan-wants-british-citizenship-5933750
When her accountant informs her that she’s been FATCA’d by British FFIs and doesn’t enjoy the same financial rights as other UK citizens, what would she think?
She may have trouble getting UK citizenship because of her legal problems, however, with a name like Lohan, it’s possible she might have an Irish born grandparent. An Irish passport would be available to her.
@Polly
I cannot speak for the future, so I will only speak for the present in regards to my current situation.
As I’m trying to give up US citizenship in a bid to have a normal marriage, and a normal life, I simply cannot fathom the concept of returning to the US with a green card, and re-naturalizing as a US citizen at any point in the future.
Sure, it is possible that I may feel different about things twenty or thirty years in the future. However, I need to live for the here and now, and act accordingly. What else am I to do?
@Polly and @MJH, I realise that I will realistically be remaining in the UK for the remainder of my life. My family are scattered anyway. I don’t believe in regrets though; onwards and upwards!
@MonaLisa…MonaLisa,,,MonaLisa…..
Since relinquishing a decade ago, I have gone back to the homeland several times on my EU Passport, without a CLN and have had no problems with ESTA in hand.
I do not believe I could unwind my relinquishment because of documents on file with the USG which was part of a five figure legal issue. CLN was not a consideration as frankly I knew little about them, no one really got them. So like you I am exiled other than being George Tourist.
Having said that on my return trips I have found the USA has drifted farther and farther away from me. Mind you I was a rabid homelander at one time……..
Anyways, I just do not like the place anymore as it has changed so much and in so many ways and I admit that I have become more European.
In the last couple years I knew of several expats that went back to the USA and they all have now come back to Europe saying the USA had drifted away from them.
@mjh………..
As crazy as this may sound, I am rooting for your relinquishment across the pond!!!
Please keep us all informed of that day so we can raise a toast to you from the four corners of the globe.
PS. When you apply for citizenship, put in the notes section of your application that ou intend to relinquish your USC. That way you have another record of intent.
I think the point here is that unless you have an immediate family member who is a US citizen, the process of getting a green card (and subsequent US citizenship) is extremely long and arduous, and it is very unlikely that in practice anyone who renounced would ever want to go through that process. They could do so but it is highly unlikely that they would do so.
Elizabeth Taylor doesn’t count because she was married to a US citizen so got a fast track green card. Someone in her situation (a history of many brief marriages) would definitely find today that their green card was scrutinized much more closely than in Taylor’s day.
@George
I’ll do my best to keep everyone in the loop.
@MJH, I’ll also be following your case with interest. I’m sure we’re making the most realistic decision given the onerous circumstances. It is what it is.
Renouncing/relinquishing is also tied in with a huge sense of relief. Let us not forget that.
And I am with George here – America is not the same as when I was a child. I do have those good memories though, of long hot summers spent in the pool and tasty freeze dipped ice cream cones!
@Polly, in the 1980/90s/ I seemed to sense that America was changing but it was just a feeling and felt ever so slight. I thought I was wearing a tin foil hat so I ignored that feeling…….
Fast forward……George has been gone for a decade but unfortunately visit every year and a half for a month. (Again, no problems entering by air with no CLN only ESTA and recently used the automated lane)
Not being in the soup, it seems the country is rapidly changing from trip to trip…..and the change is not for good IMO. Though I do realize that I am becoming more European and when I go back do get accused of going native.
I am very good at making the effort to keep friends……one thing I have found is that the homelanders have been leaving me. After a decade I essentially have no one left in America.
@George
What is “ESTA”?
Which area do you visit because I think the south is far different from the north and the midwest. You say the country is changing. In which way?
I have lost many american friends. Mostly because my hostility towards America shows ( must be coming out of my pores) and they resent that. And maybe when one lives there- it is like one doesn’t notice the changes that given a decade are visible to outsiders. But many people of my age group still have America the hero of WW2 in mind. They never realised that America`s lead as an industrial nation was mostly based on the fact that the fine factories in Japan and Germany were all bombed to ruins. So american technology and products had to have been “better” than all the rest worldwide. Only later did the competition start to have an effect again and now we see mainly german and japanese cars in american parking lots. It`s like America never saw it coming. Lots of myths going round. Now America is doing a lot of testing with immunotherapy against cancer. The one who found this way to manipulate T cells to go after cancer cells was an israeli named Eshhar. And on and on to the “exceptionalism” myth.
@George @Polly
I was a kid in the 1980’s, so the only changes that I’ve really noticed was after 9/11. After that, things got pretty ugly, pretty fast. Especially after 2008. But at any rate, I never really fit in to begin with.
I never really had that many friends back in the States. Matter of fact, I have more friends in Canada than I ever had back in the US.
@mjh
Thats true- many changes after 9/11. But I think lots of changes began with Enron cooking the books. The economy was faltering already back then and there has been loads of corruption since. If you haven’t seen it yet- do watch the documentary “Inside Job”.
@Polly @mjh
ESTA is an electronic substitute for a visa required for travelling by air to the US from one of the visa waiver countries–mostly Western European democracies and a few other relatively wealthy countries like Japan, Singapore, and Australia. Canada is the only country whose citizens are exempt from both visa and ESTA requirements when flying to the USA. Interesting that @George was able to get ESTA approved–I forget (he may have said at one point) whether @George was born in the USA or was previously a US citizen for other reasons.
I feel like the USA has been moving away from me even though I live in the USA. I’m definitely noticing the changes–and mostly they aren’t for the good–even though I live here. I’ve been here since the 1980’s and I would say the USA’s best years during my time here were the mid-1990’s. It was a phase when the USA seemed to still be a respected leader in many areas and also a phase during which the USA was (mostly) steering clear of getting involved in questionable foreign wars which the USA has been all too prone throughout its history. The USA in the mid-1990’s seemed to have mostly put its civil rights abuses behind it.
In the mid 1990’s the economy was strong and the mood in the USA was upbeat whereas it was a downer of a time in Canada. But by the late 1990’s a strong economy seemed to give way to corrupt greed in Canada–I agree that Enron was a good early example of this change.
Today the situation is reversed: people in Canada seem upbeat when I visit whereas the USA is in a real downer phase. People in Canada may visit the US for work related visits but there is little interest in moving here. And there seems to be a return in the US to really ugly civil rights problems on top of everything else.
@Dash1729
The civil rights problems has always been there but it wasn’t noticed as much because the news did not get out quickly before but now its out in a blink of an eye… People move very quickly to whip out the mobile phone to record everything & some do it at the cost of not helping a victim but rather to record to put it out on the internet quickly… I was bothered by an article someone sent me recently… a person was shot in the back on the street… instead of someone helping her quickly… people proceeded to rob her… that is something I don’t understand… don’t get me wrong… there are tons of people willing to help others… just a minor few who don’t care about anyone but themselves…
@Dash
Yeah and bonds were bringing in something like 8% in the 90s. Maybe that is why everything seemed to calm and content. It was like the calm before the storm.
@Polly
I agree with you that–especially in retrospect–that period was very much the calm before the storm. Yet at the time I was optimistic that the US gov’t seemed to have learned from and wasn’t repeating its past mistakes. For example, the first Bush respected the limited mandate he got from the international community and limited himself to kicking Saddam out of Kuwait–but didn’t try to invade Iraq itself. Unlike many of his predecessors and successors, he steered clear of an extended overseas involvement that would win enemies and influence friends in a negative way. Although Bush himself didn’t win re-election, this seemed to set the stage for a period during the first part of Clinton’s term when America was more respected again.
@US_Foreign_Person
Yes technology definitely changes things when it comes to some of these civil rights abuses but again–in the 1990’s this seemed to be a reason for optimism. The beating of Rodney King was horrible but technology seemed to be shining a light on such abuses meaning the officers responsible couldn’t get away with things they might have been able to get away with in the past–so technology seemed to be a good thing. Today it seems that technology is being used to document such abuses but even then the officers often don’t get charged–which is why I’m much less optimistic today. It seems that today there are too many people who actually like police brutality and want a repressive police state–in the 1990’s people saw police brutality as a terrible thing.
My take is that while many of these abuses have always been with us, the prevailing mood in the US has been getting steadily uglier since the mid 1990’s.
Why would you want to live there if you have developed the ability to live in other countries, speak other languages, be more adaptable, why???
I spent something like 8 years away before I had a chance to visit my parents. When I went back, — wow.. what a disappointment. I can’t believe I wasted 5 years of my life, trying to adhere to laws from a country I don’t even live in.
Amazing, an actual sane answer on Quora, from an ex-State Department official, even:
https://www.quora.com/If-a-US-citizen-renounces-his-citizenship-but-later-wishes-to-retire-in-the-US-can-this-person-apply-for-permanent-residence-in-the-US