If clicking on a link brings you to the wrong page of the comment thread, CLICK HERE to get to its current page.
UPDATE December 23, 2017: Please see the following post for the latest information: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2017/12/15/un-human-rights-complaint-quadruples-its-signatures/
UPDATE November 28, 2017:
Also, see MuzzledNoMore’s updated post, United Nations Human Rights Complaint: Seeking Advice and Additional Signatures
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UPDATE November 23, 2017:
UN Complaint Final July 29 2014 – updated links November 23 2017
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UPDATE JANUARY 10, 2017:
From MuzzledNoMore:
Just letting everybody know that we’re still waiting to hear from the UN about the status of our Complaint. With any luck we’ll have the matter taken care of within the next few months by the new Republican administration in Washington. Who knows? Maybe the UN is watching and waiting to see what happens as well. In any regard, the UN has informed us that it can take up to three years for a Complaint to reach the stage at which it will be considered or rejected.
If a “domestic” solution is possible, there will be no need for the UN to address the issue. When we filed the Complaint nearly two and a half years ago we could never have believed that repealing FATCA and switching to residence-based taxation would have made it to the 2016 Republican Party Platform. Now it remains to be seen if the party will follow through with its promises.
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UPDATE MAY 21, 2015:
Today we received official confirmation from the United Nations Human Rights Council that our Complaint has been received and is in the queue pending approval (or not) for admittance into one of the Working Groups. The next session of the Working Group on Communications is scheduled from 17 to 21 August 2015. Further information will be shared with us after that date.
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UPDATE NOVEMBER 6, 2014:
From MuzzledNoMore:
We have finally received confirmation that our Human Rights Complaint against the United States has been received by the United Nations. This is great news! But let’s not pop champagne corks just yet. There is no indication that the Complaint has been read or considered for acceptance into the complaints process in any way. That is all yet to come. But we have made a huge step forward! That deserves a few cheers all round … even without the bubbly!
UPDATE OCTOBER 27, 2014:
Permission has been given a university researcher to access to our UN Human Rights Complaint to analyze ethical assumptions on FATCA. That access will be used for academic purposes, content not to be released (as the UN has not yet acknowledged receipt of this UN Human Rights Complaint).
We view as a significant step that this document will be studied for moral dimensions and ethics. We continue to anticipate the time we will be able to publicly release contents of the Complaint, likely AFTER the next scheduled meeting to review such complaints, sometime in April 2015.
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UPDATE SEPTEMBER 10, 2014:
“JC” commented, and he’s right:
Whenever that text for the human rights complaint comes out that, I believe, will be a big help at raising awareness.
The text of the Human Rights Complaint will be published when we know the UN has received and considered it. There has been no confirmation that our submission was considered for the meeting in August (…our submission was sent just before the August meeting so, just by number of other submissions received before ours, our Human Rights Complaint may not have been considered in the time allotted). It looks like the next UN meeting to consider Human Rights Complaints is scheduled for April of 2015 — that Committee meets twice a year.
In the meantime, our fundraising must be pinned to its stand-alone legal claim and importance which absolutely addresses our human rights issues.
Donate Now: http://adcs-adsc.ca/
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August 7, 2014 UPDATE:
The Human Rights Complaint has been submitted. Thank you to those who worked on the document and made this happen. A very special thank you to all who came forward to put your names on this important document. We had a total of 41 signers, representing the countries of Canada, Germany, Japan, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Denmark, Estonia, Switzerland and Belgium.
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August 5, 2014 UPDATE:
Note: there is a confidentiality clause in the document that your name / nationality / country be kept confidential. My name and address will be the only one that might not be confidential. I wanted to share with you two notes waiting for me this morning:
Hi Carol,
I am very disappointed that more people did not come forward and sign this document, I do not understand why people are afraid to speak up for what they believe. People are so afraid of the bully acts of the USA, We must stand together, I am asking all people that the US government deem US citizens to step forward and stand up against the US and the Harper government for allowing FATCA into the Canadian banking system.
I am not on facebook or twitter. I give you permission to post this.
Disappointed
XXX
Hi Carol,
I am surprised that so few people have signed. This makes me uneasy. People must be frightened. Do you expect repercussions against the signers? At the moment I don’t have the strength to deal with any more troubles. Would you please put a hold on my name until I can evaluate your assessment of possible repercussions.
Thank you,
YYYY
I answered YYYY:
Absolutely. I can take your name off the list of signers if you are not comfortable with that — you must be OK with your decision. We will probably be sending the Complaint on Thursday, August 7th .
No, we don’t expect any repercussions against any of the signers. We will ask for confidentiality in one of the clauses.
As with everything else of this with this (persons on blogs, getting together for protest, etc.), people are afraid to step forward. The US weapon toward its people always is FEAR. That is what we see here. That is our biggest obstacle and what may defeat us in the end.
Dr. Stephen Kish, Chair of the Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty signs his name on behalf of the millions of *US Persons* Abroad who are afraid to sign.
Thanks, YYYY.
FEAR: the most effective tool the USA has at its disposal is at work in all we see regarding US Persons Abroad coming forward in unison to fight the good fight. If anything defeats us, it will be our FEAR.
As you all know, I fear too for my son’s name to be out there as it is my duty as a parent to protect his best interests. Because of my own fear, I went through all the complex back US tax filings through use of professionals in the US compliance industry. That was my choice as I could absolutely not do it myself and I so wanted this behind me, to stop the leak of my hard-earned retirement funds to be passed to the US IRS. I’m still in this game. I replied to a commenter at Isaac Brock yesterday and Stephen Kish picked part of what I said to update the ADCS-ADSC Charter Challenge post yesterday:
UPDATE August 5, 2014 (http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/06/01/its-time/)
Carol, an ADCS-ADSC Board Director, explains why she donated to this lawsuit:
The purpose of the lawsuit, to me, is to stop the obscene injustice of all of this, regain rights waived by the Canadian government’s implementation of the US FATCA IGA, thereby putting the financial institutions before individuals and families who are being criminalized!
I’m in for that just as I’m on this blog, hoping people learn from all of the stupid mistakes I made along the way — I don’t want others to make those same mistakes.
It’s about people getting their lives back, along with their dignity and their mental and physical health and to stop the the handing over to the US a good portion of what they’ve saved for their retirements.
It is about wanting Canada to remain a sovereign country, not taken over by the USA. It’s about what I think is right and not wanting to silently stand by and let this happen. It’s because I believe in free speech and don’t want to be shamed into not speaking out, at this point especially for other families who have a family member with some developmental disability or some other ‘mental incapacity’.
My update for now and my regards to all,
August 2, 2014 UPDATE:
Thank you very much for everyone who has corresponded to me at calgaryfouroneone@gmail.com to request the password and give permission for your signatures to be added. Your supportive emails are wonderful.
He is what we have for signers to the Human Rights Document:
18 – Canada
2 – UK
1 – Australia
1 – Belgium (US/Dutch Citizen)
1 – Denmark
1 – Germany
1 – Japan
1 – Switzerland
Note that one of the Canadian signers is Dr. Stephen Kish (Canadian, US)–signing personally, and on behalf of the “Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty” Board of Directors, and the millions of U.S. persons living abroad who are too frightened to sign this document.
Also waiting to hear back from 4 in Canada (one from Quebec) and one from New Zealand.
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July 30, 2014 UPDATE:
Here is the FINAL Human Rights Complaint, available to those that are considering signing. To access the password for this document, contact and request from calgaryfouroneone@gmail.com.
Each person sending a request will receive a copy from calgary411 “in Confidence” with the CLEAR understanding that it is NOT to be published. For anyone who wants to have another person read/sign the document, that other person also needs to obtain it through the Isaac Brock Society or Maple Sandbox channels. Signatures will only be accepted from those who have gotten the document through calgary411. This stipulation is necessary to keep some lid on the proliferation of this information.
We will announce when we know the timing for the agency committee looking at this document for review. We will update on this post any feedback from the agency as it is received.
This document is the collaboration of contributors to both blogs and took over a month to write, discuss and edit in consensus with a group of 15 who have vetted and approved it in its entirety. It stands as presented to them. Bloggers can have their say but there will be no further changes to the document. It is what the agency says that matters.
Sign if you are in agreement and can do so by providing to calgaryfouroneone@gmail.com your name and your nationality and/or country of residence. The Human Rights Complaint will be submitted electronically. Submitters’ names and nationalities will be typed onto the lines provided on page 1. No physical signature is required.
If you are not comfortable with the document, you do not have to sign.
TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE.
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Two dedicated individuals who participate at both the Isaac Brock Society and the Maple Sandbox blogs have prepared a comprehensive Human Rights Complaint that will be submitted on behalf of all *US Persons Abroad* the world over. Others offered suggestions on how that information should best be presented in the constraint of number of pages allowed for the Complaint. We appreciate the legal eye and suggestions for going forward with this Complaint from Professor Allison Christians.
The document now complete, I have been asked to post an announcement on their behalf. Unfortunately, because of their personal situations, they cannot lend their names to the document and this will be the end of Phase I, produced for all of us, with their great care.
I so appreciate the incredible work that has gone into this on behalf of all of us. Here is what they say:
A group of writers from the Isaac Brock Society and Maple Sandbox blogs has prepared a document that challenges citizenship-based taxation (CBT) as a violation of internationally recognized human rights. This document will be submitted as a formal complaint to a major international human rights organization within the next ten days.
Any readers who would like to support this effort by “co-signing” (having their names added to the list of those filing the complaint) should so indicate by sending an email to: calgaryfouroneone@gmail.com.
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The Canadian writers of the complaint hope to make this a truly international effort. Bloggers from all over the world are welcome to lend their names to this historic document. Signers do not have to be US Persons.****************
Signers should feel comfortable with using their own names (pseudonyms are unacceptable in this instance) and should provide their nationality and/or country of residence as well.
@Calgary411 – Can you give us all an update (maybe weekly?) RE how many have looked at this document and/or how many have signed (and from what parts of the world)?
LM and All, See upper right-hand corner of IsaacBrockSociety.ca for a link to the Human Rights Complaint post where there is a link to a PDF-protected password to view the actual document and instructions to provide your name and nationality as signatory to the document. Thank you very much for everyone who has corresponded to me at calgaryfouroneone@gmail.com to request the password and give permission for your signatures to be added. Your supportive emails are wonderful.
He is what we have for signers to the Human Rights Document:
18 – Canada
2 – UK
1 – Australia
1 – Belgium (US/Dutch Citizen)
1 – Denmark
1 – Germany
1 – Japan
1 – Switzerland
Note that one of the Canadian signers is Dr. Stephen Kish (Canadian, US)–signing personally, and on behalf of the “Alliance for the Defence of Canadian Sovereignty” Board of Directors, and the millions of U.S. persons living abroad who are too frightened to sign this document.
Also waiting to hear back from 4 in Canada (one from Quebec) and one from New Zealand.
Great to know how many countries are represented. It would be nice of those who have signed could make even a brief comment here RE their response to fully reading the submission – – to let others know what they found most important. So many times at IBS all we see is rants and frustration – – nice to get the praise and cheers too!!!!!
I “second” LM’s request for comments from “signers”. Thanks!
Congratulations and thank you for the 26 brave people who have already signed! Given my status of living in the USA it doesn’t seem appropriate for me to sign, but I’m willing to put my name out there publicly by volunteering–which I’ve done–to be a plaintiff in the legal actions on either or both sides of the border.
I had hoped though that this would attract more than 26 people though by this point. I guess much more still needs to be done to get this message out there!
@ Dash1729 – Here in Canada it is a 3-day holiday weekend, which may be one reason there hasn’t been too much traffic on IBS in the last few days. Elsewhere in the world, I cannot say. However, we should drop by this particular IBS page often to make a small comment and maybe seeing that there has been a comment here may draw others back to this page.
If you know of other organizations/web sites that might be interested to know that there has been a Human Rights Complaint made regarding CBT, go for it – – let them know! Wouldn’t it be interesting if the ACLU or other group got interested!!!!! Or the US Taxpayer organizations??? From “your side of the border” you can do so much!!!!
I signed on.
While it was several days ago that I read the submission, I do recall being happy with it. As for particulars, mums the word, and my memory is poor. I do recall wishing a few other points were made, but I also recall thinking they may not fit under the process.
@Dash1729
I signed, but don’t think I am particularly brave once I read it and understood that I only have to give my name & nationality. Also, I don’t think it would be wise for the USG to try any kind of retaliation…they would simply advance the case of being Human Rights abusers if they tried that. I think those who are convinced of the case should go ahead and sign on.
@The Mom. I think the document is a pretty good case as it is, but I agree, there are one or 2 more bullets that could have been loaded in there.
@LM
I am beginning to reach out to those I know stateside who take an interest in civil liberties to see if I am able to find some allies. I am pointing them to repealfatca.com, this website, as well as the ADCS website. Any updates as to when the fatcalegalaction.com site might be up and running? Also–has there, in fact, been a human rights complaint made? Or is it so far at the stage where there is a proposed human rights complaint that is expected to be made soon but has not yet been sent?
@LM
Also–I’ve said this before but it bears repeating–I think for opposition to FATCA to win significant support stateside, a different message is going to be needed. A message that draws a distinction between attacking the American people–something that will never win support south of the border even amongst civil libertarians–and criticizing the American government–something that will win broad sympathy if presented intelligently–is needed. There’s too much unfocused hate against the US here on this website for me to hope to direct people stateside to this site and win much support.
I’m hoping that the fatcalegalaction.com site goes live soon–Stephen Kish said he was in the US this week so perhaps he has met with some of those people. I need to get a message that I can show to people in the US that will win their support.. I’m hoping that fatcalegalaction.com will present the opposition to FATCA in a different way that can win Americans’ support.
@ Dash1729
Great to hear that you’re looking for allies in the USA borders. I will be most interested in hearing their replies (will they too be scared minnows?). And thanks for the heads-up RE Fatcalegalaction.com (I thought I knew everything that IBS was up to, but Stephen is amazing!!!!!); I’ll have to wait with you for more info on that. As to your question of the human rights complaint, my understanding (from very reliable sources) is that it will be sent off electronically later this week so that it can arrive/be printed out prior to the committee’s “reading of complaints” session in August. We will just have to wait on that one too; I have no idea how long it takes to get even an initial response in these situations but I’m sure it will be shared as soon as the submission team here knows anything…..
Dash1729, because a foreign (US) government trying to tax non-US people in non-US territory isn’t enough to garner US support?
The US government isn’t the only reason I will never spend another dime in the US. I’ve read more than my share of ignorant American comments…pay your fair share, don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way out… Really, the vast majority of American homelanders don’t give a crap about what their country does to other countries, and they haven’t for generations. The rest just shrug, saying you should see what they do to US!
@The Mom
“Dash1729, because a foreign (US) government trying to tax non-US people in non-US territory isn’t enough to garner US support?”
No, in fact it’s not, because to win people’s support in large numbers, whether you and I like it or not, you need to show them what’s in it for them.
Dale Carnegie 101.
“Really, the vast majority of American homelanders don’t give a crap about what their country does to other countries, and they haven’t for generations.”
I’ve got news for you: you’re right.
The question is: how are you going to use that information to maneuver US “homelanders” into a position where they support you in getting what you want?
I spend time on the internet witha large group, mostly American homelanders, mostly middle-aged. I have been educating them on this for at least two years. They feel bad for me, but don’t want to hear it. I no longer have any interest in educating homelanders.
Yes, I am very bitter.
@The Mom
The problem is that the majority of so-called homelanders do, in fact, have the rather ignorant attitudes that you describe.
For the minority of homelanders who do care about civil liberties, there are sadly so many civil liberties issues affecting the US these days–from the Patriot Act to the Snowden NSA revelations to drones–that it is hard to attract much attention to this issue. I mean, if civil liberties issue A affects 300 million homelanders and civil liberties issue B affects 1 million expats in Canada, which do you think gets the attention–even amongst the shrinking number of people who do care about civil liberties? That’s what I’m up against and what it sounds like you’ve been up against in your communications over the last 2+ years.
@The Mom
Yes, I have had the very same experience with my family. They feel bad, I ask them to help from inside the US, write their congressperson, etc but they do nothing. I truly believe they think this is what I get for leaving. So sad but too bad.
@Dash
After you get past the steep climb of convincing them that this will do nothing to stop tax evasion might
they respond to the ways this could potentially hurt the US? I am not knowledgeable enough to sort out the realities from much of what I read. But if there is any truth to the BRICS new bank, Russia and China using the Yuan etc and this all playing into the potential (?) of US dollar workarounds and losing reserve currency status might they react to that? It is difficult to reference the “New American” to a left wing audience but much of what Newman writes spells out his thoughts on the potential fallout to the US. (I just can’t sort out if he is right thinking).
Might pointing out how their country has extorted other nations and how this is not a great way to enhance one’s image abroad. Cost/benefit analysis has never been done and they will actually lose money on this deal. These types of activities just create more hatred directed to the US and increase the potential for serious blow-back and loss of potential allies. I don’t think Missy Merkel was overly delighted with the latest NSA mishegas, add FATCA to the pudding and then wonder why she is getting cozy with Russia. I sure don’t have a clue as to what I am talking about but maybe if a package of legitimate fallout to the US from FATCA could be put together without sounding too “out there” it might actually get some attention.
I am hoping that the compliant will be nicely presented as a web link and also printable. I intend to make use of it as I see it as a new angle to attract new attention. Currently there are those when they hear “tax” or “taxation” don’t want to hear more. Also with our situation of getting caught between two tax regimes it almost quadruples the complexity.
I will be out to convince homelanders a bit closer to the November election. Also the challenge is to try to get attention within Australia where I have yet to see one article outlining any controversy on FATCA. Having said that, I just found this: http://www.australianbankingfinance.com/banking/fatca-reforms-present-monumental-challenges-/
“The stick is so great that you can’t ignore it but the implementation challenges are so great that you actually can’t meet it. That is the problem with FATCA,” he said.
Americans are very competitive and think of themselves as second to none. Framing it right, I would expect they’d want their diaspora to be the same – string and free. If as a result of the current situation, if homelanders felt more vulnerable or second-rate, they might feel inclined do something about it. Otherwise, out of sight, out of mind.
I guess we’ll have to find a way of becoming relevant (at least to those who can do something about it).
@Bubble
How’s this idea. They need money. If there are indeed 7.5 million of us abroad say 6 million want to give up citizenship. We could make a deal…..charge us 1,000 each to be set free. That would be a chunk-0-change and no cost to anyone except us. Everyone would be happy except the compliance folks.
@charl
The fundamental problem here is that the US people, aided and abetted by the US government (or is it the other way round) thinks that the US is the most powerful country in the world.
Every nation on the planet that matters–with one important exception–has kowtowed to the US on FATCA. Don’t you see that that just reinforces the US domestic view of US superiority? If the US weren’t indeed in a superior position, why would virtually the entire planet (the part that matters financially–again with one important exception) fall in place behind the US?
I truly do believe that FATCA is bad for the USA because it doesn’t make us any friends overseas. But with no overseas nations–with one important exception–and few overseas individuals actually willing to take the US on, it is hard to refute the position that the USA is indeed in a position of strength, not weakness, here.
I mean if any past world leader–let us say a modest figure like Adolf Hitler in 1938–would have brought out something like FATCA, people would have laughed at him or her, right?
If the USA is Mordor and Obama is Sauron–as someone so pricelessly said, perhaps in another thread–then Canada is Isengard and Harper is Saruman. And those who refuse to offer the slightest resistance, such as refusing to deny their so called “US personhood”, are little better than Grima Wormtongue.
@Dash1729
“A message that draws a distinction between attacking the American people–something that will never win support south of the border even amongst civil libertarians–and criticizing the American government–something that will win broad sympathy if presented intelligently–is needed. There’s too much unfocused hate against the US here on this website for me to hope to direct people stateside to this site and win much support.”
The US government does many destructive things abroad in the name of the American people.
Until the American people take their heads out of their asses and do something about the abuses being done in their name, they will continue to be lumped in together with Uncle Sam. It is that simple.
@Dash, “I am beginning to reach out to those I know stateside who take an interest in civil liberties to see if I am able to find some allies. ”
Bravo!! I would also think that some US conservative talk radio hosts may be sympathetic. I understand that one is a dual national.
@Dash, “There’s too much unfocused hate against the US here on this website for me to hope to direct people stateside to this site and win much support.”
1.) You are correct.
2.) The “hate” is because we have been “Good Will Ambassadors” for a long time and have now been demonized first and then second hit on the knee caps with a baseball bat. Some “here” know my background, I relinquished, I am done with the US yet have had great love for the US. I have simply been beaten down so many times now that extending the right hand of friendship any more has become scarry, no mas.
We/I ask, why oh why are they doing this to us, what have we done so wrong to them to deserve this?
@Dash, one more point in that I am glad we are on the same side and team.
@Dash, “The question is: how are you going to use that information to maneuver US “homelanders” into a position where they support you in getting what you want?”
As I have said many times on here, this is NOT a tax problem. This is a Citizenship problem. What I think we want is for the USA to throw us out and cut the cord!!
Because of BOTH the Court and then Congress, they want our money, they want it difficult for us to leave, they do not recognize the citizenship we have in our home countries and they call us every name in the book!! Its narcissism and schizophrenia.
It would be nirvana if Congress punished us by requiring of Certificate of Retention (US) when you naturalise in a foreign country!!
@George
You wrote:
“We/I ask, why oh why are they doing this to us, what have we done so wrong to them to deserve this?”
Answer: You left an abusive narcissist who is punishing you for doing so.
@Charl, ” I truly believe they think this is what I get for leaving.”
Your family thinks you left. The US Government thinks you are still checked into The Hotel California.
@Bubblebustin, ” Americans are very competitive and think of themselves as second to none.”
Thats why I came to the conclusion that I think we need to get Congress to tighten up the ability to KEEP US Citizenship, albeit in accordance with the Court. I want them to punish us with the greatest punishment possible, that being the taking away of that US Passport for good!! I think 8 US Code could be amended to continue to assume that retention is intended BUT you need to file for a CRN or a Certificate of Retention of Nationality within a certain timeframe. To satisfy the Court you could have a provision that if you did not file for a CRN you could apply for a backdated CRN by showing you acted like a US Citizen.
PS. Your moniker makes me think of Finding Nemo!!