Posted on June 27, 2014 by Joe Smith Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 125 Comments What do people think will happen if a “US Person” Canadian citizen gets their bank records sent on to IRS? Share this:TwitterFacebookEmailLike this:Like Loading...
When I write “There you have it, the lay of the land……..and one of those paths which I think many will take is permanent exile from the USA. ”
That means not only visiting the USA but also doing business with the USA which includes using American banks like TD which is more American than Canadian. Also no longer buying any US investments.
@AnneFrank: Welcome back. Because you have been away, you may have missed this thread where some Brockers contacted banks to ask what questions they will be asking.
As I understand it from that thread, TD will ask “Are you a US citizen” and “Where were you born?” ScotiaBank will ask “Are you a US person for tax purposes?” BMO are asking “What is your citizenship?” and “Do you have any other citizenships?” One form has been posted from one bank asking “Are you a U.S. citizen” and “Were you born in the U.S.”
RBC is the only bank that seems to be running with the huge wiggle room CRA handed to the banks on a silver platter: ie. FIs are not required to ask for place of birth and a place of birth that shows city and state is not an unambiguous place of birth unless the document says USA (as in a passport.) My birth certificate says Warren, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. No mention of USA.
I think the person who talked to TD said that those questions will be asked when opening new accounts, including things like renewing a GIC. Maybe someone else could confirm whether my understanding of that is correct.
@Calgary: I’m sorry you are still having problems posting at Sandbox. Outraged fixed another problem earlier today, but I have no idea why your posts aren’t showing. I will alert her and will post your comment there.
Anyone else having problems?
On the ACA and Barrie McKenna issue, their name says it all. As George pointed out they are a group for people who intend to return to the US or maintain their US citizenship.
As I tweeted to Barrie McKenna, ACA does not speak for one milllion Canadians. In fact, ACA does not even bother to have a branch in Canada.
Has anyone heard what ever happened to the video of the CBT Conference in Toronto? It is almost two months since the conference was held. Considering the limited resources we have and how quickly Deckard and I pulled together our video, you would think ACA could have made theirs available by now. Unless, of course, they don’t plan to make it available.
I don’t expect ACA to release the video. It would be too embarrassing for the world (including their friends in congress, particularly the Dems) to see the arguments for keeping citizenship based taxation torn to pieces. Then they might have to do something about it.
That is, embarrassing for the world to see the arguments for keeping citizenship based taxation torn to pieces.
Samuel: Like you, I suspect the ACA video is banned in Washington.
I would like to know if the organizers who put a lot of hard work into the conference have had the courtesy of an update from ACA about what has happened to the video.
I think we now know why ACA declined Decakard’s offer to video the conference.
BTW, Michael S. Kirsch, the pro-CBT debater, is commenting on the second Economist article (Dropping the Bomb) under the pen name “A Reasoned Voice.” He’s getting an earful back from who I suspect as being some Brockers.
Sorry for the delay, Blaze. My comment appears there now — likely fixed with whatever other magic Outraged did. Thanks!
The worst is that Americans will not know what they wrought on the world and in their own ignorance of geography, will not know how many people in the world they have brought their idea of being sovereign over places such as Iraq and Vietnam. Never Canada!
ACA really needs to post the CBT debate on youtube. The world really needs to see the weakness of America’s arguments for keeping CBT.
I know what happened to the ACA debate video, Lois Lerner’s dog ate it.
Joe Blow – Condors are vultures. Example: vultur gryphus. Sigh.
None of the interest groups representing Americans abroad are very strong and ACA is probably trying to protect its image. This is a mid-term election year, FATCA has become a partisan issue (unnecessarily) and the ACA probably doesn’t want to become associated with one side. Thank goodness for the Brocker notes. It’s annoying, but we should take heart that the unpublicized ACA conference vindicates the view that there is something really wrong with U.S. CBT.
The big problem ACA is going to have is that the 7 million or so ‘U.S. citizens’ abroad are definitely not what people think of by the phrase ‘American Citizens Abroad’ or even the term expat. Mexico? Mainly kids in Mexican families. Canada? Mainly middle-income people who have lived in Canada for a long time or maybe even for their entire lives and don’t think of themselves as American. The U.S. State Department figures seem to be only so high because they are counting as American lots of people whose connection with the U.S. is rather tenuous. .
Here it is…
Perhaps ACA should change its name to ASA for American Subjects Abroad or American Serfs Abroad.
Then Compliance Condors is fitting. A sigh to you as well.
Back when I was unaware of being a US tax chattel, I never would have imagined myself joining a group like American Citizens Abroad. The “abroad” part bothered me, but I was willing to overlook that as they seemed like the one expat group that had enough clout to actually get something done in Washington. I will not renew my membership now that it seems that they won’t be releasing the CBT-RBT debate video.
Attending that debate was an opportunity to hear a US homelander defend US extraterritorial taxation at firsthand, standing on NON-US soil, and to describe just how egregious and numerous the harms of CBT, FBARs, and FATCA are to ordinary law abiding people abroad.
It was particularly significant that it took place on Canadian soil. But not many people could travel to Toronto to hear it.
It is a reality that many of us have already, or are planning to renounce/relinquish. Many more would have by now if they could, or if they even knew of the danger that US citizenship/status poses to themselves and their families abroad.
Suppressing a video where we attest to our renunciations or our injuries at the hands of US CBT, and our desire to renounce, our fear, our pain, our anger, and the rising anti-US feeling abroad that CBT and FATCA have fueled will not help RBT to happen. It is no secret that the numbers forced to expatriate is rising. It is no secret that we are angry, sad and in pain because of the US.
How will suppressing firsthand evidence of this help?
How will it help to suppress evidence that even the US CBT supporter and academic present who writes in support of it, could NOT justify the US extraterritorial taxation and penalizing of the disability benefits and savings of those living abroad who have been deemed legally incompetent and who the US will never let renounce. Those deemed legally incompetent are held not able to understand and appreciated citizenship as a concept in order to make an informed decision to renounce it. Yet, they are deemed competent enough to be taxed and penalized on their Canadian taxpayer funded disability benefits, and their RDSP. Minors are also treated similarly re renunciation and their RESPs.
The abuses and exploitation of those abroad via CBT is the US dirty secret. The only way to confront it is to make US abuses more widely known and expose the US to international scrutiny and censure.
Thanks for today’s great commentary, badger. Seems to be a lot of that there SUPPRESSING going on in all of this, including the banks not giving their employees the skinny until the last possible moment when they tell them that if the want to continue in their jobs they will be deputies in the *FATCA US Person Hunt*: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/06/26/please-provide-in-this-post-questions-big-canadian-banks-will-ask-new-account-holders-on-july-2-2014/comment-page-4/#comment-2120293
@calgary411, I think that the wider airing of the case of minors and those deemed incompetent is the only thing that will force the US to confront it. Kirsch was asked about such cases at the debate. I want to see the CBT defenders take on the indefensible. I want to see those who write about and publish articles about the US CBT system take on those instances and explore them in depth.
And NO half assed bandaid ‘workaround’ proposals are acceptable. They will inevitably result in even more unjust hurdles. Law abiding expats, minors and the most vulnerable should not have to meet a standard that is constructed to thwart criminals. They and we should not be considered acceptable collateral damage for US policy.
Has anyone actually asked ACA about the video? Maybe its just a matter of picking up the phone and calling Marylouise Serrato or Jackie Bungion.
Privacy: rights lost in Canada too, compliments of the Harper Government:
Stephen Kish has asked and will follow up with ACA again.
Could this be of any use?
I’d assume “worst case scenario” would be the IRS tries to levy a fine or penalty, and you, not having any real connection to the US, tell them to fuck off and simply do not care.
Haha! @Fred – that is my plan. Still going to keep fighting though!