On July 2 2014 my understanding is that Canada’s banks will be asking (at least) new account holders questions and employing a variety of approaches to establish U.S. personhood. These questions will violate Canada’s Charter Of Rights and other laws. Many of us also wonder whether the Silent Majority out there feels that such questions have no consequence.
Coming to a Canadian bank near you?
We need to know the actual questions and approaches and are focusing first on questions about U.S. personhood that will be asked by Canada’s major banks when Canadians open a NEW PERSONAL CHEQUING account after July 1. I suspect that different banks may ask different questions.
When you have this information, please provide in your comments these questions to be asked and I will update the top of this post.
[Please also read the disturbing comments below from @Pollyanna, who reports that one Canadian bank actually used information provided in casual conversations with the account manager to help establish whether the account holder is a U.S. person.]
My local Canadian bank branches provide this information on U.S. questions asked or not asked when opening a new account (this info may all be incorrect; please correct):
SCOTIA BANK: “Are you a U.S. person for tax purposes?”
http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/en/0,,6098,00.html
TD BANK CANADA TRUST: “Are you a U.S. citizen” AND “Where were you born?”
TD’s web information page: http://www.td.com/fatca/index.jsp
See: LM Correspondence with CustomerCare, TD for others to consider in relation to their own FFI’s web information and their relationship with their FIs.
HSBC CANADA: “Do you hold multiple citizenship” AND “What is your place of birth”
http://www.expat.hsbc.com/1/2/hsbc-expat/services/expat-tax/tax-matters/fatca?WT.ac=HBIB_14_5_29_home_small_pro_FATCA_Find_out_more
NEW HSBC information consent
CIBC: Local branch will receive info July 2.
Note: the link below is for CIBC World Markets, which deals with Wholesale Banking (Corporate & Institutional) as opposed to Retail Banking (Personal & Small Business). We have yet to see a CIBC FATCA page specifically written for Retail Banking clients. Perhaps as of July 2, once local CIBC branches receive info, there will be such as page on the CIBC website.
http://www.cibcwm.com/cibc-eportal-web/portal/wm?pageId=fatca&language=en_CA
BMO: “Do you have any other citizenships” (tentative per @Anne Boleyn)
http://www.bmo.com/home/about/banking/foreign-account-tax-compliance
RBC ROYAL BANK:
http://www.rbc.com/aboutus/fatca.html
I would be very skeptical of this information:
“If you open a new account and provide two pieces of ID that are not U.S. tainted and do NOT INCLUDE A CANADIAN PASSPORT (e.g., Canadian driver’s license and social insurance number are ok) and the bank has no other evidence to indicate that you are a US person (e.g., you never told the bank by mistake) no U.S. questions will be asked.
However, should you PRESENT A (TOXIC) CANADIAN PASSPORT at the time of opening an account, YOU WILL BE ASKED whether you do or do not have a U.S. place of birth.”
The way to stop the questions from being asked is to go to:
@Shovel – I just clicked the link in your comment and it works fine. Please try clearing your cache and cookies and try again. Which browser and OS are you using?
GwEvil. I have the same problem. The link in Stephen’s post appears to only search within the IBS site. If I copy it into my browser (safari) it works fine.
@KalC – I see what you mean. Either Stephen didn’t put in the link properly or the IBS site is not working right. I will message him to get him to try to fix it.
Ok it’s feexed!
@between
Do you have a source for that?
@Shovel, I am still not very good with links and GwEvil kindly fixed my mistakes. Thanks for pointing this out. Next time I will check the link to confirm that it works.
—Went to CIBC this morning. The local branch people know nothing of the change July 2 but will call head office to try to find out. It all is supposed to happen just 8 days from now.
It seems FIs are still all over the map in terms of what they know or are doing about FATCA.
Steinbach apparently has already sent account info to the CRA without attempting to cure indica (@neal aplander). There is a report of an employee (or FI?) who thought RRSPs must be reported. A report of an adviser who was going to report based on personal knowledge of the account holder.
Outlook Financial told me this:
We have looked into this further with our internal department for clarification. They have advised that FATCA for Canadian Financial Institutions has been delayed till December 2014. Outlook Financial is currently reviewing the reporting requirements for FATCA and will continue to look at options under the legislation. If required, Outlook Financial will be compliant.
I do not trust that any FI will elect to use the $50K reporting threshold, although Hubert Financial indicates they might:
We are a Registered Deemed-Compliant Foreign Financial Institution under FATCA. Our reporting requirements are:
•May 1, 2015: First reporting – for year-end 2014 balances (only for accounts > $1 Million at June 30, 2014 and new accounts opened July to December 2014)
•May 1, 2016: Second reporting – for year-end 2015 balances (all accounts > $50 thousand USD at June 30, 2015; for entity accounts, such as businesses, corporations and trusts this threshold is $250,000 USD)
It occurs to me now that even if a FI elects to use the $50K threshold, they may well start with the nasty questions now so they have the information on hand as soon as your balance goes over $50K. I also don’t trust that any FI will treat existing accounts from before July 1 2014 differently from new accounts after that date.
Note that non-reporting FIs must still register with FATCA and re-certify yearly. Or, at least Local Client Base FIs do.
Be careful when an FI says they are “Deemed-compliant”. To some, this just means that they have registered with FATCA for reporting. They key phrase is “non-reporting”.
CIBC questions:
Local CIBC branch person just got back to me from CIBC “Support” on questions that will be asked.
Support says that info on questions re new accounts will be made available to the branch on July 2.
My Canadian husband and I have been wondering what to do with our TD account as July 1st approaches; most of our banking is done at the local credit union but we do have a U.S. dollar account at TD. I had a recent conversation with my TD banker in smalltown rural Canada. He said each existing TD client’s online portfolio now has two new lines: “U.S. Place of Birth” with a line to fill in the city and state, and “Self-Declared U.S. Person”, with boxes to tick yes or no. He said any new product (account), or a change to an existing product (account), such as a change to a GIC or any changing/adding a beneficiary or updating an address, would trigger filling out those two lines in a client’s portfolio. I asked if personal knowledge is a factor, and was told no, it’s all down/up to “corporate” and what’s in the computer system for the portfolio. My banker said he won’t be filling in any spaces/lines in my portfolio, and suggested that it might be “prudent” for “one” not to make any changes to any existing products until one were to have a CLN in hand. My (Canadian) husband and I know our banker and the bank manager professionally and personally, and I trust these two (with a level of trust we do not have for those at our local credit union or Scotiabank branch). I will say that our banker is nearing retirement age, and any significant staffing changes at our local branch before the arrival of my CLN would be reason for a switch to our local credit union.
I couldn’t recall whether I had used ID with my US birthplace when opening my account, so he checked my file/portfolio and reminded me that I had used my provincial driver’s license and provincial health care card; those health care cards are no longer accepted for ID purposes because they lack photo and/or signature, but my banker said a bank credit card can now be used in place of a health care card.
Interestingly, when I had a conversation last week with the person at our local credit union to determine whether they under the threshold for FATCA compliancy, I asked if any other local dual citizens/permanent citizens had made inquiries and was told, “No, you’re the first”. Another staffer at our credit union said, “I’m sure in a few years even the credit unions won’t be exempt.”
My husband says he can see why his ancestors were fond of the under-the-mattress or in the cream can approach…
The way they can update your accounts is by stopping the atm & internet banking in steps… so people will come in to see what is going on… then u would have to show proof of citizenship… Its already being done in 1 country I know… they were *updating* atms & internet passwords… couldn’t get into the account… I can say about 95% do not know about this… they will just give up the info easily because they see nothing wrong to have the US taint… that is something u hide now. Credit unions are safe for now… but I am sure they will not be for long… In the province I am… almost all are reporting… Also… I am sure the 50K being talked about is not it… got a feeling they will toss everyone over. They are not suppose to close your accounts… but they will eventually… I can see that now…
I went to open a bank account in Australia. The bank had questions about US person etc and wanted me to sign an indemnity clause that dissolved the bank of any liability for damages relating the info I provide them. The document never explained what they would do with the info.
I left without opening an account and signing anything. The bank person at the counter had no understanding about all this.
I felt odd about the whole thing as I have lived in Australia since I was 1 month old. I have always felt Australian but now do not know what I feel.
Any thoughts?
any comments
@Stephen:
“To clarify, are you saying that Royal Bank ferreted out your existing personal account, not by a computer search, or by any written statement you made to the bank, or by asking you in person or in a letter whether you are a U.S. person as part of a search, but did so because of information you happened to provide in (private) conversations with the account manager?”
Yes, that is correct. Casual conversations we’d had over the years on holidays taken in the US visiting our sons, and such. Our RBC Securities investment guy told us that even casual conversations are considered part of “know your client”.
@WhatAmI:
Even combining our personal and business accounts, we did not reach that $1 million threshold.
Ironically, the RBC teller finalizing the closure of our accounts this morning was not familiar with FATCA.
@upset
sounds like you are experiencing he first taste of theinternational Berlin fiscal wall ………. I have list of the FFIs hat hold my pension accounts. am writing with copy of my CLN and UK passport to say “pls dont pass onmy details to IRS they already have them, iam in compliance…. and btw if you do I am moving my accounts.”
may not do any good, may do some good in awareness.
having turned my life upside down in last 2.25 years , clinical depression, 40% life savings to CIC, renounced, etcetc
what are they gonna do? strip my passport? fire me ?? please iwish theywould.. oh Gee. I already did all of the above.!!
upset: I think everyone here feels exactly as you do and trying to find ways to come to grips with how to cope. Canada will be celebrating its national day on July 1, the day that FATCA comes into effect. I was going to wear black to our normally red and white celebration but I’ve decided to try to remember that it is not my country that has betrayed me but rather a political party, the Conservatives. Canada is also made up of people, more people, in fact, who believe in ways of thinking other than the way of the Conservative Party. I will try to remember that when I have moments of identity crisis.
@upset
Continue to feel and be the Australian that you are – don’t let the US take that away from you. You are not alone in this – there are many Canadians who were born in the US and came to Canada in (often early) childhood.
@Pollyanna
Good for you – those RBC managers/advisors just lost you as a client. The law of unintended consequences is kicking in. Maybe bankers will catch on that FATCA reporting could result in lost business and that a “don’t ask don’t tell” approach is better for the bottom line (as along as they make it look like they’re complying to the IRS’ satisfaction to avoid penalties). We’ll see, but I fear that we could be in for an initial witch hunt phase as some bankers will inevitably be overzealous in searching out US Persons.
@Pollyanna,
It don’t know how to respond adequately to your clarification of what our lives will be like after July 1. Petros had his own response in a comment above.
Anyway, I have revised the title of my post and part of the post itself to acknowledge your experience with the bank.
Anyone know of compliant non-reporting credit unions in Guelph/Loo area? Tried a few and it is not looking good.
Pollyanna. Well done. Ending your relationship was absolutely the right thing to do. The guy broke your trust. Also it sounds like he is too stupid to manage anyone’s money.
Well, isn’t that just great that “information provided in casual conversations with account manager is now accepted bank practice in Canada.” Those of us who contacted our account manager’s for copies of statements and other documents needed while trying to decide whether or not to come “into compliance” have just stamped a big red, white and blue star on our foreheads. Will our neighbours take to hiding us in their basements when the IRS comes knocking? If this isn’t pure and simple discrimination, making us all second class citizens in two countries, I don’t know what is…
Charl: Have you checked with Your Neighbourhood Credit Union? What response did you get? Below is the response I received a couple of months ago.
Libro, where I have been a member for 15 years gave me a very different answer. I realize YNCU may make changes in the future, but I just completed a transfer of my Libro accounts to YNCU.
I think YNCU will comply. but it looks like they are planning a “Don’t ask. Don’t tell approach.”
If anyone is asked those questions, I suggest you immediately file a Human Rights complaint (Canadian Human Rights Commission if it is a bank and provincial HR Commission if a credit union).
You may also want to consider a complaint with the Privacy Commissioner. I believe that would be the federal Privacy Commissioner for both banks and CUs.
The Implementation Act does prevail over all other laws. However, when questioned by Murray Rankin at Finance Committee, Chantal Bernier, the Interim Privacy Commissioner, said the “Privacy Act has been interpreted by the courts to be quasi-constitutional.” (10:30 in the video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slqAkW_eeUA
Rankin then asked if the IGA and and new law “are in conflict with the Privacy Act, the Privacy Act would prevail?” She replied “That would be my view, certainly.”
In addition, during her testimony, she made a point (9:22) about “All information sharing activities must be undertaken in a way which respects privacy obligations. These obligations include limiting the amount of personal information collected to that which is necessary for the stated purpose.”
CRA Guidelines are clear. Financial institutions are not required to ask for place of birth. Therefore, it seems to me that personal information is not “necessary for the stated purpose.”
She is no longer the Privacy Commissioner. The new Privacy Commissioner has been involved in some laws and practices that actually violate Canadians’ privacy. However, one of the first things he did is speak out publicly against the cyberbullying law. He recommended the government “take a hard look” at a recent Supreme Court decision on privacy “because there are lessons there.”
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/06/18/therrien_believes_his_public_safety_background_will_bolster_privacy_watchdog_role.html
In terms of Human Rights, I have learned the courts have also ruled Human Rights laws are quasi constitutional.
I have no idea if either of these approaches would have any effect. But, you don’t need a lawyer for either and I certainly think it is worth a try. In fact, that is what I intend to do if TD or Your Neighbourhood Credit Union asks me any of those questions.
Be warned, however, the Human Rights process can be long, tedious and adversarial. I have no idea what the process is like for a Privacy complaint with the federal government. I made a complaint with the provincial Privacy Commissioner recently about a privacy breach of some medical information. The process was relatively quick, but I was not completely satisfied with the outcome.
On June 20, 2014, final guidance for FATCA implementation by financial institutions was issued by the Canadian Revenue Agency (CRA).
http://www.fsitaxposts.com/2014/06/25/canadian-fatca-implementation-guidance-released/
@Petros
It was your blog and the subsequent conversation it inspired between my husband and myself (I was beginning paranoia mode), that prompted my husband to call both our financial advisor and account manager to inquire about RBC’s protocol. The acct. manager checked and found nothing on file indicating my birthplace and felt confident (this was still February) that there should be no reason for reporting. My husband stressed to him we need to be informed if that should change. Subsequently, RBC must have made changes to their policy. When he called back about a month ago, he was both surprised and apologetic, but honest.
@KalC
It was jaw dropping for us to receive those calls, but we appreciated the honesty of both individuals. We made them both aware, with the initial calls last February, that if we had to be “outed” we were jumping ship.
I will now send another cheque to help support ADCS from my new credit union account!
@Pollyanna, well let that be a lesson to anyone asking if they have US indicia in their banking information at the bank. I think a better option is to ask for ALL the private information that the bank is holding on you: you have the right to ask for all information that any private company is holding in your file under PIPEDA. But don’t say it is because you are a US citizen that you want that information.
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