I am posting this thread on behalf of Charl who is wondering if anyone would be interested in protesting at the US consulates. Her mission is to educate the public, and get much needed media attention.
Charl says:
Most Canadians fortunate enough not to have a US branding, if they’ve even heard of FATCA amd FBAR, likely think it does not apply to them. They don’t readily see that legislation to implement a FATCA IGA will allow the US government to rob Canada of a significant portion of its assets, and that the Canadian government is actually paying to allow the US to steal from the tax base of Canada.
We need to expose the real numbers of dollars that the US is attempting to extract from Canadians. For example, there are estimated to be over one million Canadians with ‘clinging US nationality’ (WhiteKat loves this term, but forgets who came up with it). Even if only half of these unfortunate Canadians are exposed, and each has an average of 3 accounts never previously revealed to the USA on FBARs, the penalties owed would be at minimum $90 billion dollars (3 accounts * $10K per account * 6 years * 500,000 Canadians). In addition to this siphoning off of wholly Canadian earned, already taxed in Canada savings, Canadian tax payers will be on the hook for the welfare support that will be required by financially devastated Canadians, deemed ‘US persons’ and thus US taxpayers by the USA. In addition, the Canadian banks are spending billions to become FATCA compliant; guess who will be paying the banks’ FATCA compliance costs?
I am thinking that a good venue for a public protest would be to hold simultaneous protests at all US consulates in Canada. If we can get large numbers of angry Canadians showing up at all US consulates on the same day to make a huge noise, perhaps we can get some major attention from Canadian media. Although it would be nice to have the consulates themselves hear us, that is secondary in my opinion. For some reason, despite many attempts by concerned Canadians, regarding the seriousness of this issue, the Canadian press is not picking up on this US attack on Canada to any major degree. I fear that most of our MPs do not understand the unintended fallout of the ‘wonderful’ deal our government has made with the devil, once it has exposed to the IRS, those Canadians whose dominant nationality is Canadian, but who USA claims as its own, in USA’s immoral quest to impose a form of taxation that drastically conflicts with internationally accepted norms.
For best effect, we should be BIG and LOUD, and do what is necessary to get lots of attention. Rally your friends, families, and neighbours to join us. Our government may be terrified of the US, but we little folk, afraid as we may be, realize what is at stake to ALL Canadians, and are brave enough to come out and push back at the bully to our south.
The world is watching to see how Canada will react to FATCA, as Canada has the most IRS targeted, so-called ‘US persons’ in the world. As such, our country has a moral obligation to be a world leader and to give other countries the courage to stand up to the US’s bullying tactics and extra-territorial overreach. Imagine all countries saying ‘NO’, if we can show them the way.
If you all think this is a good idea, we would have to choose a date, advertise the event, devise/modify and print out FATCA educational materials (update the FATCA fact sheet), create signs, see if other groups (perhaps those with protesting experience) will join us, etc. I have a few ideas, but need more if we have any possibility of doing this.
What do my fellow Brockers think?
I like that, Em, PCU’s explain it well (similar to LCU’s that we’ve all expended on this fight – life credit units of Just Me fame). The time for bringing out larger numbers just may not YET be right.
@411……Good question
I’ll ask him. He’s a sales person so you know he will look around if he can make a commission. I’ll ask him but as I suggested it isn’t necessary to go Canada wide and spread ourselves too thin. We must target one place in my opinion and start a huge rebellion there first, totally blitz them and the rest will follow when they see the action. We need more people here and then we can consider noisier protests but to me it isn’t necessary because the longer this threat hangs over Canada the more people will speak up and many of them will be influential. We need to go on a hunt for more to come here.
That sounds like a good strategy, Chears — concentrating on your area’s one “battlefield” right now. Good start. I hear what you’re saying about spreading our efforts too thin. Sure would be good to start seeing a few heavy hitters in this fight.
@NorthernStar,
I’m sorry to hear this FATCA crap has been getting you so down. You deserve a break from it. Please try to give yourself one. And try not to let all the insensitive people around you steal your light. They are who they are, appreciate them for what they do bring to your life, and although it is disheartening that they don’t ‘get it’, remember that there are many here at Brock who do. Spring will soon be here. Think about all those lovely flowers you will soon have!
OK, I am going to rethink what I should be doing next. I have emailed every human I can think of to get some attention and it has been an epic failure. Now I am going to send Shubert1975’s letter to everyone in my email contact list and ask them to send it to everyone in their list. Maybe an email tree will hit someone who actually has a voice.
When I had my OMG moment recently I read over at Hodgen that when people become aware that FATCA is going to be throwing granny under the bus there will be a shit storm. Well I am that granny, I am under the bus and um….all I see is snow. Now I hear wait will July 1 and there will be a total outrage…wouldn’t count on it.
This is just sooooo frustrating. How do we get some attention? (I am now stamping my feet, a real old fashion tantrum, not pretty, might break bones at my age). I know you all have been trying for a long time and must be even more frustrated than I. Does anyone know how Jatras was able to get an op-ed into the Toronto Star? It seems you also need connections to get an op-ed published….who knew. Are their monies left in the challenge fund to purchase advertising in the larger national papers? Just freakin’ how do you make the front page. Now I’m rethinking the topless thing…ya, that desperate. (I do have a friend that hangs out with the Church St crowd in Toronto. Now they know how to put on a splash! If I could rally them for a protest we WOULD get noticed).
I am going to keep on plugging here…the law of averages must be in my favour eventually!!!
@411
Just in BC as I suspected
Thanks for checking, Chears. And, I agree, that is a good place for that intense effort right now.
@WhiteKat @Charl
I am sure there are many, many people in Canada who are interested in learning more about FATCA and protecting themselves against this imposition of a foreign nation’s law in Canada. However, I think it is difficult to even get people to come here to lurk, let alone participate for a variety of reasons.
The format used here is difficult to navigate. Newbies arriving have no easy list to view or way of negotiating the sometimes thousands of comments. I know things have been stickied at the side but a real forum format with titles of individual threads would go a long way to clarifying where people need to go. It takes considerable persistence to wade through the articles and then all of the comments. I’m sure that is why there often end up being random help me messages in otherwise unrelated comments.
The other thing is that while I, and others I know, have gained good information here, it has come at the expense of having to wade through comments, diatribes, attacks that are, largely, irrelevant to Canadians who are discovering their US “obligations” just now. In general, Canadians do not care whether a random interwebz commentator thinks that Obamacare works, they don’t even care who the US president is – they just want to know how to get out of the mess that FATCA is causing in their Canadian life. I gather that I am in the minority here but I cannot, in good faith, tell a friend, colleague, or family member to come to this site and join in the struggle because there is much to put off Canadians who don’t want to engage in Obama bashing, hear the Nazi analogies, etc.
I would respectfully suggest that IBS may want to look at evolving the format here to make the different topic threads a bit more obvious and easy to use and ask people to keep topics/comments that are mainly the sport of US bashing to specific threads so that those threads can be avoided by newcomers more easily than they are now.
Thanks for your comments, DM.
We are, as Deckard describes us, a rag-tag bunch of persons from all over the world who have come together to discuss issues of FATCA, FBAR, US citizenship-based taxation here. You are correct, comments often times go off track and we are not well-organized. Things usually move quite quickly here and there are but a small group of volunteers that delete spam and try to answer questions along with others who can chime in with their expertise. This site is secondary in our livelihoods and other things going on in our lives, but very important in our lives. Some of us discuss related personal issues one on one offline from the blog. There just aren’t enough hours in the day or anyone paid to provide a better product. Going to the ARCHIVES at the top of the home page will give a list of all posts; that may help to find what a person is looking for. Doing a search from there will also help. Petros maintains this site with contributions here and there for running it. We try to stay on track with the purpose of the discussion without having to censor person’s comments (the reason this site started in the first place).
This site, I believe, does provide a service and a support to many US Persons who live abroad. It will not satisfy everyone or meet everyone’s needs. It is one alternative to research before hiring US tax and accounting professionals to answer questions.
IF there is any way that you can contribute your time and expertise here, we will welcome it. One of our main efforts right now is the possible Canadian Charter (of Rights and Freedoms) Challenge that we have raised funds for a legal opinion. There are also information sessions (also completely volunteer time and effort, with the presenter paying for his own travel — we ask a $20 donation to help with the cost, mostly for rental of the facility we use). We invite you and any newcomers to help us in efforts in raising money for the Charter Challenge and in joining us to learn more at information sessions if one comes to a city near you. The more of us there are and the less scattered and hidden, the stronger we will be. Thanks again.
@DM I haven’t seen much Obama bashing. We have place where free expression is permitted. I am sorry you think that your Canadian friends can’t handle that. I believe Canadians are made of sterner stuff than that. I recommend that you send them to Maple Sandbox which has a full page of rules.
I know people who have saved hundreds of thousands of dollars, thanks to this website. Just chatted to one person who will save $100,000 on the sale of his house, just because he renounced his citizenship before selling it. I know that we have kept people out of the OVDP thanks to our advice to not enter that program unless one is a criminal.
We try to put the most important posts in the right column which will help people navigate the process of relinquishment of US citizenship, seminars and also some of the activists threads. Your unduly negative about the benefits of this website. If you would like to donate a few thousand dollars we can upgrade it. But the website remains advertising free by the request of the readers. So we depend on donations. We have what we need to keep the present format, but if you are suggesting that we improve it substantially, then bear in mind that there are substantial costs in people power and funding.
@DM
Maybe it is time to make an info book like for Kindle. We can have chapters for different categories.
I just had a flash image on this – a topic page . Maybe sell at a small cost like Robert Morris does his essays
@All
Maybe we would get more notice if we start a new party….
found this online today.
@DM
With all due respect, what does your comment have to do with the post topic that Charl authored?
@DM, its warts and all or nothing I’m afraid. I understand that is frustrating when looking for a specific entry point or answer. It is organic. It ebbs and flows. It is an accretion. It might grow on you.
There are also the sites listed below as “External Resources” you can look at. And the webpages we discover and bring back here to share – some useful only for an excerpt, some worth checking back on at intervals. It’s almost a live document. The indexes and table of contents are people.
No promises. The site isn’t static – it changes too, since these issues are very complex, multi-faceted and there are often not definitive answers or solutions. We’re not ‘experts’ mostly. We don’t have consistent participation by advocate gurus of the US tax law professional type. Just interested and affected persons. And then there are the invisible readers of different kinds – including no doubt some invisible US and probably other government types. At one point conversations with the Canadian Banksters Association had a dedicated thread. Etc.
@DM
Any newbies that come here and ask a question, you can be assured our patient Brockers will direct them to the best place to get their answer in our sidebar. I think many readers lurk awhile and get familiar with this blog before making comments or asking questions.. I did.
It is like an encyclopedia with so much information that you can count on as being accurate And we all lift each other up with humour or inspirational words. That is what friends are for. When you come here you find real friends.
@DM
Try Google.
@bubblebustin
LOL!
It is a full moon, I should try to be nice, but its hard.
@DM
Suggesting we discuss CBT and FATCA without mentioning Obama or Nazis would be like discussing the holocaust without mentioning Hitler. The Obama administration has done more to hurt Americans abroad than any other in the history of the United States, as far as I know. Can’t sanitize that any more than you can raw emotion from people whose future’s hang in the balance.
@WhiteKAt – I included Charl because I though she was trying to drum up interest amongst Canadians, nothing more.
I don’t know why I even bother – sniggering about Google and full moons.
The question was posed why more people aren’t acting on the FATCA issueand how we can best get the info out to them. Well, I can tell you it’s not by being nasty to people who make suggestions. It seems this board tolerates just about everything except suggestions as to how engage a critical mass of ordinary Canadians who don’t have full on hate for the US or its administration. Good to know.
@DM, as I said, I don’t see full on hate for the US and the Obama administration–I see clear and trenchant criticism of the US and the Obama administration. And whatever cryptic quips that you are able to detect in a suggestion to consult google or full moons, I can assure you, they were not “nasty”. We actually tolerate your comment very well, and made some good suggestions as to how you can deal with the problems that you brought up.
You seem a bit too sensitive about this. You wouldn’t happen to be a member of https://www.democratsabroad.org/
@Petros, I have Canadian in-laws that are so in love with Obama it’s nauseating. I have to force myself not to comment when they go on and on about how wonderful he is at Christmas dinner. I think we have to come to terms with the fact that there may be a large audience out there that fits that description. However, if they are in the same boat as all the so called US persons on this board they should be able to understand why we are sometimes anti-Obama. It was the freakin’ Democrats that passed FATCA after all. We can’t blame it on the Republicans.
We have just as many nasty things to say about the Conservative government in Canada yet nobody is complaining about that not even me who has always voted Conservative. You have to put the blame where it belongs.
I was one of the absolute Obama adorers myself. I couldn’t even be in the same room with a Republican without bursting an aneurysm. This is precisely why I feel doubly betrayed, I was such a loyal fan. I don’t buy the Republicans wanting to repeal FATCA because it hurts the little guy either, but hey it works for me. It is also my belief that Rand Paul is a wacko-bird disguised as a normal guy. I am such a hypocrite that I’ll go for whatever gets FATCA thrown under the bus rather than me! This isn’t about politics, it is about survival here.
Look, DM, if anyone restrains themselves here, they do it because they want to. If you want just the facts and the facts only, you’re NEVER going to get that here, is my point. Compared to a great many other blogs, IBS is downright civilized – and especially so with the issues being discussed here.
It would not be what it is without its warts.
@petros
No, Petros, I am not a Democrat. I am a Canadian whose whole life is here in Canada.
@DM, actually Barack Obama, Jack Lew, Timothy Geithner, and Douglas Schulman have done a lot to cause suffering of Canadians in Canada. Now I find that it doesn’t take very long to explain why the USA is in the wrong when it comes to citizenship-based taxation, FATCA, FBAR, etc. I’d say many of us resent Obama–on his watch I had to give up my US citizenship. But I don’t see much bashing here, not like I do on American websites and Facebook.
But your defending Obama makes you look like an apologist.
@DM
This blog is full of long-term expats and ex-Americans, most of whom are angry and traumatized about the way Uncle Sam has been mistreating Americans abroad.
The occasional Obama bashing and Nazi analogies are simply expressions of the anger and frustration felt by the victims of abuse. If you were to walk in the shoes of an expat or ex-American, you would understand.