Yesterday, Fauzia Kasuri, a senior member of the Pakistani political party Movement for Justice (Tahrik-e Insaf), went to the U.S. Consulate General in Lahore to take the Oath of Renunciation of United States Citizenship. Unlike we ordinary renunciants — who depending on the consulate might get sent away without any proof at all that our renunciation is in progress — Kasuri got a signed letter from Consul Marc A. Snider (pictured at right) confirming her renunciation and even committing publicly to a timeline for issuing a Certificate of Loss of Nationality to her:
The oath of renunciation taken on the above date is the final act that Ms. Kasuri must take in the relinquishment process. The U.S. Consulate General has retained Ms. Kasuri’s passport and will forward the information from the renunciation to the Department of State in Washington, D.C. for final processing, which normally takes two to four weeks. Once complete, the Department of State will forward a copy of the final certificate to Ms. Kasuri for her records.
Anyone reading this managed to get a CLN in two weeks? It took Petros more than a year to get his, and while we’ve had reports that it’s taking somewhat less time these days, two to four weeks is certainly not the “normal” timeline — this is a flat-out lie by State to try to keep themselves from looking ridiculously slow. Clearly, the boys & girls in Mordor Washington are rushing Kasuri’s paperwork through the system; in a country which was allegedly founded on the premise that “all men are created equal”, politicians get special treatment while the rest of us have to wait … and wait … and wait …
For those of you who haven’t been following South Asian politics recently, last year Pakistan started along the same road that Jamaica went down in 2008: with the breaking of the old truce under which parties on all sides turned a blind eye to illegally-held dual citizenships, election petitions are being filed left and right to invalidate the results of races in which one candidate held a non-Pakistani passport, and elected officials are scrambling for proof that they have rid themselves of all outside allegiances.
On the whole, Pakistani legislators have shown themselves to be far brighter than their Jamaican counterparts in their choice of foreign citizenship: most of the disgraced politicians turned out to have British or Canadian passports buried in their sock drawers. Only two or three people in the 342-member National Assembly of Pakistan seem to have been hiding U.S. passports, in contrast to more than half a dozen in the 63-seat Jamaican House of Representatives. They had to hide their U.S. passports from not only the public but from the “Internal” Revenue Service — one of only two tax agencies on earth which invades other countries to collect information & income from non-resident citizens.
The other Pakistani politician who was foolish enough to keep a U.S. passport was Nuzhat Sadiq of the Pakistan Muslim League (N). Sadiq resigned from the National Assembly in March 2012, and then her name showed up just four months later in the U.S. Federal Register Q2 2012 list of persons losing U.S. citizenship. Incidentally, Sadiq is well above the $2 million wealth threshold required to be a covered expatriate for purposes of the U.S. exit tax — in her 2008 electoral asset declaration, she declared her net worth to be Rs. 912.81 million, or about US$9 million. Some people think this may have even been an understatement, given that her 2011 asset declaration did not list any cars, while her 2012 asset declaration was challenged as false and incomplete.
Eric,
You seem surprised by this. Of course in the United States:
“All men are created equal”
It’s just that:
“Some are created more equal than others”
Reread Orwell’s Animal Farm.
That said, a very humorous post and excellent post that is equal to you all of your other posts.
This was probably include an exemption from the Exit Tax as well.
Created equal, yes. Staying equal, forget it. But it’s nothing new.
“All men are created equal” is not equivalent to “all men are born equal” or “all men are equal.” It is the reply of the English philosopher John Locke in his Treatises on Civil Government to the claim of the “divine right of kings” put forward by Hooker. It means that all are equal in the eyes of God and before the law, nothing more. Jefferson took over quite a bit from Locke, changing “life, liberty, and property” to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.”
My CLN (Frankfurt, Germany) took 9-10 weeks.
Those of us in Canada who are relinquishing/renouncing need to print out a copy of that letter and take it along with our other paperwork when we go to our appointment. Then, as the proceedings are winding up we can produce said letter and say, “can you please give me one of these”.
I was told at the London Embassy that it will probably take around three months though the normal range is between two and four months. I saw that one of the people renouncing there last year got hers within a couple months whereas someone else’s took about five months. I’ll just have to be patient.
@ maz57
I love that idea. Like in Oliver Twist … hand over your copy of the letter and say, “Please sir, I want more.”
I received a similar letter (in German) from the US consulate when I renounced in Frankfurt last year, albeit without any mention of how long it would take to get the CLN. (It took 4 months, although they had told me it would take 4 weeks.)
Why oh why, no consistency of standard of procedures from one consulate to another? With all the legislation the US is able to put in force, they should be experts at standards of procedure policy manuals. Why have so many who have asked for even a photocopy of what they signed at their renunciation appointment been denied that? It seems such a reasonable request — we get copies of other agreements we have signed without a problem / as a standard of procedure in a democratic country.
I’d also be asking them if they can produce a CLN in 2-4 weeks like they did for “said guy”. 😛 If not they may be talking to my lawyer. 😛
2-3 months the Consular official who did my Oath ceremony told me on the 4th March. So hopefullly I’ll get it by end of April or end of May at the latest. Much longer than that and I’m in danger of running into trouble with my bank.
Perhaps it depends on where you live in the world and how busy your local U.S. consulate is at the time. I renounced in Australia at one of the more isolated consulates on 3 April 2012. My CLN arrived in the mail at my house on 23 April 2012. That is 20 days later, or just under 3 weeks.
@Rose,
That’s a great positive piece of information you share — that you received your CLN in 20 days! Can I add your information to the Relinquishment & Renunciation database http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/relinquishment/. That and the Consulate Report Directory http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/ are, I believe, great tools for newcomers learning what they need to do / come to their individual decisions regarding expatriation. If so, what consulate did you renounce at?; first contact?; first appointment; second appointment date (if that was necessary); date of CLN and date of receipt of CLN. Think about it — you will be helping others.
Most of all, congratulations!!
@Rose,
Thanks for the info. I remember you telling us about your meeting last year, but I didn’t realise your CLN was only 3 weeks. That must be a record!
To some extent, it does seem to depend on where you live as, from what we can tell, DoS has divided the world into 5 zone offices. Africa – East Asia and Pacific – Europe and Eurasia – Near East, South and Central Asia -Western Hemisphere.
Canada (zone code WHA) had a one year (!) delay in 2011-12. DC/WHA is now taking about 2 months to process them — though DC/WHA still has a Toronto stack going back to last Fall backed up.
I was told by a consul in Spring 2012 that DC was beginning to tackle this backlog, and we saw it (finally) start to break in late June 2012. The WHA zone office apparently dealt with the backlog by doing a bunch from one consulate, then about a month later a bunch from another consulate …
What irks me about this case is that the person was given an official letter that very day — not that she was given one – what irks me is that everyone else isn’t, everywhere. Or a copy of their signed document/s. Some evidence that the event occurred. Especially when it will takes months to get the official document. It’s standard business procedure to give each party a copy of a signed document, some proof that the event occurred. And it’s getting (or already gotten, depending where you live) critically important for us former-USCs to be able to prove that, despite our birthplace, we are indeed not USCs
Thank you @Eric, very valuable to know – that if you’re the right kind of “US taxable person”, you can get a letter attesting that you have renounced – whereas the others have to make do with the receipt for the 450. fee. AND you can get a timeline guarantee for your CLN.
I am still thinking about the renunciation by Mahmoud (variant spelling ‘Mahmud’) Karzai, a brother of Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, and part owner of the bank of Kabul.He says it is in order to run for political office in Afghanistan.
Did he also qualify for the rare letter attesting to his renunciation, and the timeline guaranteed for his CLN?
How often are these issued?
My wife will relinquish in April at a consulate. What does she need to take with her? Want to be sure we cover all bases.
@ Joe,
Since she’s relinquishing, I take it she was born in the US and relinquished her US citizenship when she became a citizen of another country (s. 349(a)(1)).
Based on my experience (Toronto), which seems pretty standard from what I’ve read in the Consulate Reports, they want:
Birth certificate;
Citizenship certificate from country she naturalised in (if this is Canada, bring both the certificate (which says on it it’s not official, but it is dated) and the photo card (I got the impression the important thing is they need something official that corroborates the date — I’m not so sure the photo card was required, but I had both so I didn’t think much about it));
Passport of her country (it’s current photo id, also it’s proof of citizenship);
US passport (if she has one that is still valid);
Marriage certificate (if she changed her name upon marriage).
Best to fill out the 4079 questionnaire in advance, of course, as it’s rather long, although some people report having done it on site. I filled out the 4081 (statement of understanding of consequences) in advance as well, but didn’t bother with the 4083 (certificate of loss of nationality) as there’s a bunch of stuff the vice consul has to fill in on there anyway.
It can vary a bit (even though it shouldn’t) from one consulate to another, so you might want to check with your consulate – or let us know what consulate your wife is going to, as someone here may have gone there. Also you can check to see if there’s reports of your local consulate in the Consulate Report Directory.
@ Calgary411
Yes, that’s good news, isn’t it! I was very pleasantly surprised. And yes, I am happy to share more details now in the hope it will be of use to others:
Place of renunciation: Perth, Western Australia
1st contact: phoned the consulate on Wednesday 21 March 2012
1st appointment: the next day, Thursday 22 March 2012
2nd appointment: scheduled for the following week but had to be re-scheduled due to an unforeseen emergency, actually took place on Tuesday 3 April 2012 when I took the formal oath
Date of CLN: 3 April 2012
Date of DS approval: 19 April
Date of receipt of CLN: 23 April
@Rose,
33 days from 1st contact to receipt of CLN — this is a record!
Interesting not only did DoS approve it in 17 days (DoS in DC has been our main problem in Canada), but you got it 4 days after approval and you’re really far from DC. Anyway I’m very happy for you that it was such a short process. And thanks for sharing your info!
(This is weird — we happen to have a Seekers cd on (it’s evening here) — and when I brought up the Brock site just now, they were singing “I Am Australian.”)
@ pacifica777
There is no way any documents could reach me in such a short time if mailed from DC. The consulate explained to me how the forms and documents are scanned and sent electronically to Dos in DC along with their report/opinion. Once approved, DoS sends back the approved CLN electronically. The consulate then prints out the CLN, applies the seal and then sends it on to me in the local mail. Unbelievably quick, partially because the consulate here was so efficient.
Thanks, Rose. I’ll add your information to the database. It sounds as if the Perth consulate is very with it / efficient — the first like yours reported here. Do you know other US Persons there?
At any rate, thank you for giving us another report from Australia which may help others there. Glad that the Perth process went so smoothly for you. It is a pleasure to add your information — sincere congratulations!
@Rose,
I knew that we get the approved CLN sent to us by post from our local consulate, but for some reason I’d been thinking DC sent the approved CLNs to the consulate physically as well (part of my brain obviously remains stuck in the 20th century). I was wondering about that, you getting yours in 4 days, because I knew that it had to go from DC to the consulate, and from the consulate to the person. Thanks for explaining. Now, I get it.
I’m still impressed with Perth, though — definitely efficient, as you point out — what a great timeline. Whoever’s the ACS chief there, they should send her/him as a consultant to consulates such as Vancouver!
@badger: yeah, this seems to be pretty standard operating procedure … but only for politically-connected people. E.g. Ukraine’s First Lady Kateryna Yushchenko got one of these letters too back in 2007, which got printed up in Ukrainian media at the time (even though she never showed up in the Federal Register!)
http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/articles/4b1ab0904b5e6
@Pacifica 777
Thank you so much for this. It will be Calgary. Any pitfalls in explaining reasons? She never had US passport, but was born there. Has been in Canada for 42 years and a Canadian citizen for 36. Married to a Canadian who was born in Canada and has spent his whole life there.
@calgary411
I have heard of other US Persons living here in Perth, but don’t know any personally. I also heard of one other renouncing about the same time I did, but that’s all I know. I lived in another part of Australia for two years prior to moving to Perth and socialized with many in the American ex-pat community. Lovely people but they were mostly flag waving, proud American patriots and I decided on arrival in Perth to put my energy into integrating into the local community. I feel and am very Australian now after living here for more than 40 years.
@pacifica777
I’m perhaps biased, but Perth is a great place to live and has lots of warm sunshine. It is considered one of the three best postings in the world a career US diplomat can get. The previous Consul General loved Perth so much that when his time was up, he retired and took a position with a local university (I’m not sure how long he intends to stay here). Also, a couple of years ago I discovered a former chief of the US 7th Fleet decided to live here in his retirement.
P.S. I love the Seekers and their song “I Am Australian”