Eric has been doing a great job of finding information about the real number of Americans giving up their citizenship, so much so that in my last Overseas Exile post on this topic, I was amused to discover that he had (as usual) already found the information I was researching and posted it here with much more analysis than I had the time to do. So my apologies if this has already been posted here.
Interestingly, though, expatami posted a link to this FATCA discussion (pdf) posted by an investment firm in Switzerland. Near the top of page five is the following:
Of the almost 40,000 US citizens who are estimated to live in Switzerland, [Minus the over 900 of whom have renounced their US citizenship in 2012 alone according to Ambassador Beyer]
Can anyone help to verify those numbers? If true, that implies that over 2% of Americans living in Switzerland are giving up their US citizenship. If you consider that it takes 12 years of residency to get Swiss citizenship and renunciants are unlikely to renounce without another citizenship, than we have some shockingly high numbers here.
With those numbers correct (I’m suspicious) and were the renunciation rate constant around the world (a bad and, I assume, incorrect assumption), we would have had over 141,000 Americans abroad renouncing last year (assuming a 6.3 million world population of Americans abroad). I don’t think we’re anywhere close to that number, but if the above quoted numbers are correct, the Swiss would have to be renouncing at a rate of 150 times greater than the rest of Americans abroad were the 932 number to be correct.
There is a now well-known newspaper report stating that over 400 Americans renounced in Switzerland in the first 9 months of 2012.
In Sweden, the awareness of what is going on is not high. ANd I hear no reactions. I Heard that the American Woman’s Club in Oslo was fuming when an embassy attache came to their meeting to explain FATCA, though. Zero media coverage. Also, it takes quite a few years of effort to blend into the Swedish Culture and language, so most would have a pretty strong Connection to the Homeland. Hence no serious moves of any kind would be expected.
However, the renunciation process was indeed streamlined, the double visit was eliminated. So, they must be getting their information from somewhere.
We read the account where the Oslo embassy was dead set against allowing anyone to renunciate—-so they must be getting info from somewhere.
London did a minimum of 200 in 2012. I stress “minimum” because most believe the number was significantly higher, notwithstanding shutdown of the service during the Olympics in August. There is capacity to do 10 or more appointments a week, and when families are involved, more than one person may expatriate at the same appointment.
@qm: where are you getting your information about London?
What is amazing is that the USG appears simply not to care either about the renunciations or about the devestating effect of FATCA. The battleship changes course for no one it seems. That, plus, governments like Switzerland, Germany, the UK et al (and unfortunately perhaps Canada) simply allow the US to demand that these countries hunt out and rat on its own residents and/or citizens under the threat of a 30% withholding tax. Most US citizens would not voluntarily renounce if not compelled to and would happily and understandably pay US taxes for US source income like any other non resident.
@overseasexile:
From a source which I can assure you is reliabile but unfortunately I cannot disclose.
Americans in Switzerland are much more aware of FATCA than those in England or many other countries for that matter as Swiss banks have cancelled their accounts or notified them of reporting requirements. I believe that once other banks get started on identifications and notifications this year those Americans abroad who have been blissfully unaware of this nightmare will have a rude awakening and renunciations will sky rocket.
I was told last Nov when I renounced that the embassy in Bern had a 1300 on their wait list.
,,,,I was told last Nov when I renounced that the embassy in Bern had a 1300 on their wait list…..
as of 3/20/2013 this number has moved up to > 1600
Overseasexile, you can’t make the assumption that all Americans renouncing in Switzerland, or elsewhere, are going to have to wait for another citizenship before they do so. I’m based in Switzerland, but renounced at the beginning of the month; I also have British citizenship from birth so no need to wait to apply for a Swiss one even if I met the criteria which I don’t (my language skills suck).
Another blog here suggested that renunciations in Switzerland last year were around the 400-450 mark.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/11/28/are-us-renunciation-figures-being-gamed/
Steve Klaus, Switzerland has rejected the IGA with the US and is currently heading towards a popular referendum vote by the Swiss people on a new proposal by some of the Swiss political parties. They’re working on it now and will probably be voted on later in the year. In part it will enshrine banking secrecy into the Swiss constitution. There’s another blog here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/03/20/swiss-to-vote-on-initiative-to-return-gold-stored-in-the-us-to-switzerland-new-initiative-being-drafted-to-protect-bank-secrecy/
Which has an article in French with more details.
@Medea, you wrote:
I can’t guarantee that assumption, but I seriously doubt many, if any, are renouncing without another citizenship. In all of US history, only two Americans are known to have renounced their citizenship without having another citizenship.
@overseasexile, there is also <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jolley"<Thomas Jolley https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jolley or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jolley and Joel Slater. There is also “Stateless Man” who posts on IBS every now and then.
Joel Slater renounced US citizenship in1987 and became a US citizen in 1993.
@Medea
How sure are you that Switzerland has rejected the IGA? Sure, the SVP plus the Social Democrats are against it, and together they have a parliamentary majority, but we’re not out of the woods yet (or so it seems?).
Additionally, the proposed change would indeed write banking secrecy into the constitution but only for the protection of Swiss residents. This is nonetheless a very healthy development.
Few days back I went to US consulate in a town in India. While I was waiting there for a service, within span of an hour two people renounced or relinquished US citizenship. One old lady can’t speak English, so the consular called a translator to explain to the old lady consequences of renouncing US citizenship. Almost every one waiting at citizen services can hear the translator’s loudly and prolonged explanation. I don’t know why she is renouncing instead of relinquishing, since India doesn’t allow dual citizenship. The Indian government gives a latter stating conditional offer of citizenship and one must relinquish his existing citizenship for securing certificate of Indian citizenship. Since India has multiple US consulate offices, I believe, renouncement and relinquishment numbers must be much higher than reported.
Well, they had their “consultation” phase of Parliament the other week on the FATCA IGA and 3 parties said that when the actual vote happens in June they will vote no. That’s what has set off this initiative of a new proposed change. There will be an IGA of some kind in the future that’s almost certain I would think, but it doesn’t look like it’s going to happen soon. If they get the signatures needed, it then has to be put to the people in a referendum. Here’s a link explaining the process:
https://www.ch.ch/en/popular-initiatives/
The other question is how the US itself will react to any change to the IGA. Iirc Switzerland used to require reasonable proof of any wrong doing for subpeonaes on bank accounts before the UBS situation, so whether America will be happy to go back to that proposed scenario I don’t know. If they threaten something like imposing the 30% withholding tax on all Swiss bank US transactions if they’re not happy with any new IGA, things could get ugly. If there’s one thing the Swiss people hate it’s being threatened by outsiders trying to put pressure on them to comply with their wants. To a certain extent Switzerland goes it’s own way and if the rest of the world doesn’t like it, tough. Whether they can continue to do that in future is anyone’s guess.
Mike,
I may have missed a report on your renunciation. Would you be comfortable having your info added to the Relinquishment & Renunciation database http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/relinquishment/, with no name — just location. Understand if not! All of your contributions here have been valuable to the discussions.
Speculation on numbers of renunciations and relinquishments wouldn’t be necessary if we could get the numbers directly from the US State Department. A request for those data has been pending at Data.gov for over a month:
https://explore.data.gov/nominate/2412
I urge more readers of this web site to go to that page to add comments supporting the request. The Obama administration advertises an Open Government Initiative (http://www.whitehouse.gov/open). Let’s hold them to it.
Hello, Heidi,
Thanks for your latest info. It looks like I may have missed a report on your renunciation (Bern?).
Would you be OK in having your info added to the Relinquishment & Renunciation database http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/relinquishment/, with no name — just location. If not, that’s OK. The information we have on that report (and the Consulate Directory Report) will help newcomers who are learning about all of this.
Mike Tarrantes & Heidi, I would be very surprised if it’s that high. I rang up on the 28th January for an appointment and was scheduled for the 4th March, just over a month. I think I would have had to wait a lot longer if the number was in the 1,300 to 1,600 range. They may have had that many requests for the necessary documentation though.
Does anyone know how many appointments they do a week for renunciations? We could get a rough idea then of how quickly they might be dealing with these numbers.
Overseasexile, I wasn’t suggesting they were renouncing without having another citizenship. It’s likely that many, like me, already have one to fall back on so can proceed with renunciation without delay.
An interview with Donald Beyer, US Ambassador to Switzerland, published on 9 February 2013 in the Swiss Tages-Anzeiger states that “Switzerland is the country in which the greatest number of Americans give up their citizenship.”
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/Amerikaner-sorgen-sich-weniger-um-hohe-Bankerloehne/story/13958083
Relevant excerpt in German:
Tages-Anzeiger: “Immer mehr Amerikaner in der Schweiz verzichten auf ihren Pass, weil sie die jährliche Steuerbefragung als Schikane erleben.
Beyer: Steuerkomplikationen sind die häufigste Klage, die wir von unseren Expats hören, und die Schweiz ist auch das Land, in dem am meisten Amerikaner ihre Staatsbürgerschaft aufgeben. Das hat wohl mit dem hohen Lebensstandard zu tun.”
Translation:
Tages-Anzeiger: “More and more Americans in Switzerland abstain on their passport, because they experience the annual tax examination of chicanery.
Beyer: Tax complications are the most frequent complaint, that we hear about our Expats, and Switzerland is also the country, in which Americans give up their citizenship the most. This has to probably do with the high standard of living.”
Don’t you love translation programs – “Steuerbefragung als Schikane erleben” into “tax examination of chicanery”.
Beyer – try the high cost of compliance and you’ll be nearer the mark.
if you ever wondered what they are doing with OUR money 🙂 http://www.accountingtoday.com/news/Congressman-Demands-IRS-Release-Star-Trek-Video-66117-1.html?ET=webcpa:e6846:430732a:&st=email
….Does anyone know how many appointments they do a week for renunciations?..
They told me yesterday approx. 35-40….. but I realy getting fed up with this information flow – you ask 3 people and most likely you get 3 different answers
@ AnonAnon
I just added a comment at https://explore.data.gov/nominate/2412
Sorry I didn’t do it sooner when you first posted the link … good intentions often slip away without a good attention span.
Mike Tarrantes, I agree. Completely different answers whenever you ask. If those figures were right though then the numbers would be staggering. If there was a back log of 1,300 in November and they were doing 35-40 renunciations a week, then it should have be cleared in around 6-8 weeks, allowing a couple of weeks off for Christmas. If there’s still a backlog of 1,600 in March that’s a lot of renunciations between the November and March dates. Being generous and saying it took them until the end of February to process the initial lot, that makes a figure of close to 3,000 US citizens in 4 months renouncing or waiting to renounce.
I doubt they were doing that many renunciations every week, but even so the total for Switzerland alone will be way higher than the worldwide figure officially reported last year of 1,781.
@Mike Tarrantes: A Star Trek training video seems perfectly reasonable to me. The Interplanetary Revenue Service is preparing for the future: they have less than a decade to figure out how they’re gonna tax all those American colonists on Mars!
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/01/10/american-colonists-on-mars-will-remain-subject-to-u-s-tax/
@Eric ……..Scotty beam me over 🙂