Came across this only today. It’s from 2005.
Need to have CLN to travel Virgin
P Bowles from Littlehampton, West Sussex wrote
On September 27, I arrived at Heathrow to check in for a flight to Boston with Virgin Atlantic. As we stood in line, our passports were checked by an agent. I have a full British passport, but my place of birth is Baltimore. I was taken to see a supervisor, who asked whether I had proof I had given up my US citizenship. Apparently, a British passport is not sufficient proof. Virgin said it could not fly me unless I produced a “Loss of Nationality” letter.
*When it comes to US citizenship, under US law you are presumed guilty unless and until you prove your innocence by presenting your CLN.
It is interesting that airlines are expected to enforce this law requiring that persons with US citizenship must use US passports for entering and leaving the US, but immigration oficers don’t. We hear that the occassional case of a dual US-Canadian citizen entering the US with a Canadian passport being questioned or advised “next time get and use a US passport,” but I have yet to hear of any such person being denied entry because they did not have a US passport.
What is sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander.
@John, Excellent find. We need to try to document these cases as well as possible. There is also the case of Boris Johnson, being denied boarding a Continental flight with his British passport. But the problem is clearly this: US border guards often insist on this rule, and yet people like yourself, who many years ago relinquished their citizenship, have never obtained a CLN. But the CLN is nothing except the acknowledgement of a fait accompli, i.e., you were not a citizen of the US all those years; it’s just that the State Department hadn’t yet acknowledge your loss of citizenship. This is a form of clear discrimination but how can we get the US authorities to stop it?
FWIW, The embassy has a big pop-up alert? I went to the link the travel columnist provided.
I realise this is an old article, but I went to the link, clicked through four pages on the Embassy site to find this scanty information, nothing about former citizens.
Not only is this information buried deep in the site, but (1) Why would a non-citizen look up travel requirements for USCs in the first place? (2) Even if they happened to see this statement, why would they think it applies to them? Why is there no warning that former USCs need to show a CLN?
I personally think it’s ridiculous that, as an “alien” (love that word :)) with a valid Canadian passport, I also have to prove that I’m not a USC if I were to travel there [I became aware of this, to my amazement, last summer]. But worse, they’re sure aren’t publicising it, leaving people open to serious hassles as this guy had or even worse problems.
Likewise, I know that on the consulate websites in Canada, there’s no mention of travel requirements for Former USCs — and the only reason I ever bothered to look at a US consulate website in my entire life is because of this US mess we’re all dealing with at Brock.
*At this rate we’ll need laminated wallet-size CLNs.
This appears ONLY to be a UK issue. I am not aware of ANYONE — including me — being turned away at Pearson Intl Airport for entry into the USA.
@ broken man, you make an interesting logistical point. My CLN is printed on stand 20lb copypaper. It is not intended for travel. If I were to travel to the US frequently, this little piece of carbon would soon wear thin and become illegible, even with such protective coverings as I could provide. Perhaps a notarized photocopy would suffice? Unlikely, since US border guards are unreasonable pricks.
*@Petros, Staples can shrink any document down to card size (driver’s license size) so they tell me..but I would be afraid to hand over a CLN to anyone for fear of some sort of damage. I would be carrying it around in a Bullet Proof Box..
When I get my CLN, I will have legal lawyer-notarized copies of the original, which will be in my safety deposit box.
(I see Petros comment on the same.)
Calgary, that is the best way to do it!
This is way off topic, but it thought it was funny.
It seems the Italians are nailing Chinese tourists that cross over from Switzerland by bus for the VAT and duty on the fancy stuff they buy in Switzerland (Swiss VAT is much lower than Italian). This is despite that these tourists aren’t intending to keep the property in Italy. Appearantly these tourists find negotiating the tax refund process when they leave Italy a nightmare.
http://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/4145114-les-touristes-chinois-chicanes-a-la-douane-entre-le-tessin-et-l-italie.html
When I renounced, the embassy personnel in Geneva advised me to always bring my CLN when travelling to the US. They emphasized it should be original, and not a copy. I do this, although I feel uncomfortable carrying the original around, and have no doubt it will someday become worn and illegible. For that reason I made three notarized copies and keep those at home. God forbid if I must someday use those to travel to the US, but I don’t know any better way.
After CLNs are issued (may the higher power assist), the successful supplicants could get a copy tattooed on the opposite cheek from the one marking us as US property – issued at birth like Petros (http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/30/the-property-of-the-usa-tattoo/). Or, maybe an embedded chip – so it is readable automatically by the official scanners – in order to then be able to travel without worrying about that valuable paperwork.
@Wellington, to this day, POTUS has not produced an original copy of his birth certificate for the scrutiny of those who challenge his right to be president. I don’t see why a digital copy of our CLNs should not suffice. If you can become POTUS without an original proof of your eligibility, why should we poor ex-Americans be held to higher standard. He even sent an army officer, Terry Lakin, to jail, who only required that the commander in chief prove his eligibility to the office by showing an original copy of his long form birth certificate, in keeping with Lakin’s oath to preserve the constitution of the United States. I am angry that I have to show an original CLN to prove that I have the right to enter my birth country on a Canadian passport, when Barack Hussein Obama has never proven he is eligible to be President of the United States with an original copy of his birth certificate. Why are there two standards? One to become the most powerful man in the world with a finger on the button, a lax standard that never requires even showing any proof of eligibility; and another higher standard, just so that I can frickin’ enter the US?
@badger,
Who can do editorial cartoons of all your good ideas — and Petros, and em, and bubblebustin — many others?
@Wellington, @All,
Can we imagine that we would be able to apply for a new CLN if our original got stolen or destroyed or just plain lost?
Does anyone have any recent experience traveling with kids that are technically US citizens but are travelling on a Canadian or other passport? Specifically, kids that are too young to renounce their citizenship? I think I read somewhere that most consulates won’t let children renounce unless they are over 16.
*Petros. I’m surprised you would repeat this extreme right wing conspiracy theory racist bullshit.
There goes my support for your time and effort in maintaining this website.
@Cornwalliscal, Show me where Barack Obama had to prove he was a natural born citizen of the United States with the original copy of his birth certificate. I don’t know what is “right wing conspiracy theory racist bullshit” about asking a person to prove that they are eligible for the office with an original document. We are asked to produce an original CLN just to enter the US as tourists or to visit family. It doesn’t seem proportional or fair to me.
As for it being racist, I’ve actually seen the text from Obama’s literary publicist which showed that before he ran for president of the United States he was promoting himself as born in Kenya. That makes Barack Obama the original birther. Is Obama also racist?
Obama’s publicity from his publicist before he ran for president:
We’ve all suffered under this man.
Personally, I don’t give a rats ass about where Obama was born and don’t even want to waste 10 seconds thinking about it. Although some of the posts don’t interest me particularly, although some of the things I’m interested in don’t interest others, although I don’t always agree with other people’s opinions and statements, the overall good that I derive from this site far outweighs, IMHO, the negatives. There is room for all of us.
@outraged, Nobody seems to care where Obama was born except those who question his eligibility for office. For the purposes of this thread my point is simply that he did not have to provide an original long form of his birth certificate; a pdf copy was only released 27 April 2011, AFTER he had become president–and it was not the original but a digital copy that some experts maintain is a forgery.
The absurdity of it is that the border cops are saying that if we have an American birthplace marked on our foreign passport we MUST enter the US with a US passport or with an eligible passport PLUS an original CLN. This makes it harder for people who were really born in the US than others from the same country (Canada, UK, or whatever). So much for the alleged benefits of being an American citizen! Yet to become president, you don’t actually have to prove anything with an original document. Why should the burden of proof be harder for entering the country than for becoming president? And what pray tell is racist about asking that question?
sorry brother. i admire your work on this site, i really do. but the pointed inclusion of ‘hussein’ in your earlier post is a dead giveaway. like all the other birthers out there.
and ” we’ve all suffered under this man” ?? please. time to walk it back.
*As I understand it, wasn’t Obama’s mother an American? So therefore, according to U.S. laws he would be an American no matter where he was born. Even if he still lived in Kenya and were not the President, he would have to file taxes and fing FBARS.
*Banany.. The batshit crazy birthers would have us believe that Pres. Obama was born in Kenya.
Only US born Americans are eligible to be President. ( A quirk of their constitution) Therefore the batshit crazy birthers believe he is ineligible to be Pres.
*The constitution says Natural-Born, but does not define what natural-born means. It would seem to me that a Natural-Born means citizen since birth. What is important is the time that US citizenship was acquired, not the location of the birth. Location is addressed in the requirement that the person must have been a resident of the US for 14 years.
All right, I guess I’m just hopelessly naive, but I had to go look up what the hell a birther is to see what’s going on here. Although wikepedia isn’t the best source, it does tell me what a birther is and that the supporters of the theory have been branded as racist.
I am a ‘PC-brainwashed Canadian’, and I am admittedly sensitive to what I consider racist remarks. I have to say that although I don’t agree with everything Petros says, I, personally, have not picked up on any racism. Given his ancestry, I would find it highly hypocritical for him to post racist remarks, so I think I would have remarked upon it to myself
I do, however, suspect he loves conspiracy theories.
Petros – right or wrong (okay definitely wrong) there is one set of rules for the rich and connected, and another for the rest of us.