The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
Answering “no” sounds right to me. As you point out, the question is in the present tense. As you were a citizen for part of 1979, you filed tax for 1979, but that’s irrelevant to your having relinquished.
Likewise I’d make no mention of it in the affidavit — even you don’t know what your ex-wife did or didn’t do, but the case is about you, and you know that you didn’t file taxes for any year after relinquishment.
Thanks Pacifica.
That was what I thought.
Although I won’t mention it to them, IF my ex filed a joint return using my T-4s, she would have had to ask me to sign, which I don’t remember, and, in that case, I would have been the foreign spouse, not an American paying taxes to his own country… I don’t owe them that info.
Here’s my affidavit! It was kinda fun writing the truth. But as I have zero experience with affidavits, I was wondering if any of you could take a quick look and comment. Obviously, I’ll use my real name when I print it out. 😉 Hope I’m not, as we say in French, drowning the fish ( noyer le posson). If it looks OK to you, I’ll sign it before a Commissioner of oaths later this week.
AFFIDAVIT TO SUPPLEMENT DS-4079
I, Old & Simple, swear, to the best of my knowledge, that the following is true :
I entered Canada as a landed immigrant on May 22, 1976.
I acquired Canadian citizenship on October 16, 1979.
I had no intention of remaining an American citizen, since I believed then and believe now that one can be fully loyal to only one nation.
Prior to acquiring my Canadian citizenship, I presented myself at the Consulate General of the United States in Montreal to inquire as to the consequences of doing so. I was told firmly that I would definitely lose my United States citizenship unless I presented the consulate with evidence that I was forced to obtain Canadian citizenship in order to keep my employment. My employer had so such requirement.
Therefore, my intention to lose my American citizenship was confirmed and it was with that intention that I took the Canadian oath of citizenship, the words of which are:
“I swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen.”
Since acquiring my Canadian citizenship, I have never maintained a residence in the United States, have not owned property there, and have never voted in an American election. I have never traveled with an American passport nor applied to renew one. I have no contact with friends or family in the United States.
I acquired Canadian citizenship because I had become quite attached to Canada and intended to spend the rest of my life here.
As a Canadian, I have always resided in the Province of Quebec, and have voted in the majority of Canadian elections for which I was eligible at the federal, provincial and municipal level. I have always worked for a Canadian employer until my retirement in 2007. All my friends and social connections are Canadian citizens, and since my retirement, I do volunteer work at a Canadian charitable institution.
Sounds excellent, Old&Simple. All the facts to claim that long-ago relinquishment. Good work.
One little typo — My employer had
sono such requirement.O&S. Attaboy!
Thanks, Calgary and Duke!
@Old & Simple,
Sounds like a ‘slam/dunk’ to me. Good luck at the Montreal Consulate.
Looks great, Old and Simple, really concise and really clear.
@Pacifica…how do you escalate a claim if they argue with you that they don’t think you intended tor relinquish? I think you mentioned earlier that you or someone you knew went through that process?!?
@Old&Simple, good statement. You should say, ” My employer had NO such requirement.”
As for saying you have no contact with friends and family, that’s fine but shouldn’t really matter. The passport is a bigger issue. Good thing you didn’t get suckered into getting a US passport.
@ Tom Benedict,
Depends what the problem is. Is some vice consul arguing that they don’t think the person intended to relinquish at the time they performed the relinquishing act? Or arguing that they don’t think the person intended to relinquish based on the person’s behaviour after the relinquishing act? Are they asking for more evidence, more explanation, or just saying no way? Are they illustrating specifically why they think the person didn’t intend to relinquish and backing it up in the context of law or acting capriciously? I think the best course of action would depend on variables such as those.
In general, if I felt the need to escalate the matter the first thing I’d do is contact the head of American Citizen Services at the consulate. If that ends in a stalemate, probably either bring it up with the consul general for the country or with the DoS Office of American Citizens Services for my region (this is the office that approves CLNs — DOS divides the world into five regions for it), or maybe with the Office of Policy Review and Interagency Liaison (which is also involved with CLNs, I’m not sure what their exact role is though).
My problem was more a procedural matter than a substantive one. They didn’t actually question that I’d intended to relinquish, at least at first — they firmly and repeatedly made the argument that it was not possible for me to have relinquished due to the law (a law which never existed), then they gave in on that but wanted me to attend a second meeting of two to three hours of more questioning months later to evaluate if I really had relinquished. From this and several other bizarre irregularities, some more reminiscent of a Dragnet movie than a consulate, I knew something was radically wrong. I sensed, and shortly thereafter confirmed, that I was dealing with a systemic problem and that I would need to go above and beyond them, which I did, and my slam-dunk ended up being handled properly in about 10 minutes at a different consulate, felt like they represented two different countries.
Is there a DOS manual or other document one can cite if an ignorant consular employee insists a relinquisher must pay $450?
Also, I found this in 7 FAM 1220 :
“(3) Form DS-4081, Statement of Understanding Concerning the Consequences and Ramifications of Relinquishment or Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship;
NOTE: This is a new requirement; use Form DS-4081 for all loss-of-nationality cases where there is intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship. If an individual declines to execute Form DS- 4081, or the consular officer neglects to obtain it; that does not invalidate the loss of nationality.”
I haven’t seen mention of this on IBS. Would refusing be raising a red flag? It seems so illogical to sign off on all those warnings 30 years after expatriating!
@Old and Simple,
So far, I have only found this reference in the Federal Register. I would have liked even better to find it with a reference to s.349(a)(5), but the word renunciation is clear. And a relinquishment under any other subsection of 349(a) is not a renunciation.
“A new fee of $450 will be established to help defray a portion of the total cost to the U.S. Government of documenting the renunciation of citizenship.”
It’s the top right-hand corner of page 36525. (that just the page number, the document itself is only 14 pages long)
As for your question about 4081, I don’t know. I thought it was rather dopey, too, after all these years, but I did sign it though since it said both relinquish/renounce on it. I know a couple of people crossed out renounce, but I didn’t bother as the consulate was cool and very clear that my CLN would be backdated. As for not signing it, that never crossed my mind. Sure looks like you don’t have to, but perhaps someone else here has some insight on if it would be no problem or cause an unwelcome hassle.
Pacifica, thanks. I’ll print out that page.
pacifica777 – More on the $450 fee at http://usxcanada.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/2012-feb-2-kennedy/
Montreal Consulate confirms my appointment…for “renunciation”.
They confirmed in these words, and below there message were my original messages stressing relinquishment, not renunciation :
We have a tracing on all of your email exchanges. I see that you have the information required. We’ll see you on the 28th to open your file.
Couldn’t help answering with a polite rebuke :
Thank for the confirmation. I will be there.
As to the information you sent, it was about renunciation, and I asked about relinquishment. I will assume that the personnel I will meet understand the difference.
Thanks again.
I know it’s probably just some ignorant clerk, but before my retirement I was a manager in a situation where it was very important that the clerks give accurate info and refer questions to the proper professionals. I would given an official disciplinary notice to someone answering like that.
You are educating them, Old&Simple, as well as re-clarifying the purpose of your own appointment.
It is obvious the consulates need the larnin’. Perhaps one day we’ll see consistency on knowledge of and processing appointments for both renunciations AND relinquishments.
I think you are well prepared!
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