The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Hijacked and AnonAnon!
Hijacked,
You wrote:
That’s just how I felt reading everyone’s reports of receiving their CLNs (also, I’ll be honest, a little bit of envy.) It seems like a long wait (actually it is, the average wait time for all countries, except Canada, that we have data on is 4-1/2 *weeks*), but reading of people’s receiving them gave me the feeling that, yes, it does happen.
Anon Anon,
You’re alsoToronto . I have no clue what goes on Washington , but we know they approved a batch for Toronto on July 15th. My CLN was approved on October 15th, so hopefully I’m the first to hear from a new batch – as my meeting was in May and you’re July, that looks good.
@Undecided Canadian,
Pacifica is correct. The ‘magical’ year was 1986. But the only thing that really changed then, was as Pacifica states, pre 1986 the U.S. assumed that if you became a citizen of another country, it was with the intent to give up your U.S. citizenship. Then DOS would have had to ‘prove’ that you intended to maintain U.S. citizenship. After that date, it was assumed that your ‘intent’ was to maintain your U.S. citizenship and you would have to ‘prove’ that you intended to give up the U.S. citizenship.
Now from what you have said, you should not have any difficulty ‘proving’ that you did in fact ‘intend’ to give up U.S. citizenship in 1992, upon becoming a Canadian. You have done nothing to lay claim to U.S. citizenship since that time ie no U.S. passport, no tax filings, no voting in the U.S. I would think that just like I have a ‘right’ to a CLN, based on my expatriating act of 1972, you, also, have a right to a CLN, back-dated to 1992.
Hope this helps and welcome to this site. Lots of good info on it.
*Congratulations, Pacifica. Gives me hope there is a new batch on the way. Still waiting for mine from Dec.2011 Toronto 🙁
Think I’ll email them on Monday.
@Undecided Canadian
just to reinforce what Pacifica and Tiger have said, it sounds to me like you have a ‘slam dunk’ relinquishment case. Since becoming a Canadian in 1992 you have done nothing to assert or exercise US citizenship, and have only behaved like a Canadian. For twenty years.
Also, have a look at your Canadian passports, present and expired. With any luck, you may find a couple of US entry visa stamps in one or more of them. The last three times I’ve flown into the US with my Canadian passport showing US birthplace, they’ve scanned my passport, stamped it with an entry visa, and didn’t say a word about the passport. (I’ve had a CLN since 1976 and I’m pretty sure their computers tell them that, but my wife only got her CLN in August and her passport also got the stamps on the same trips, before she got the CLN.) They haven’t been consistent about visa-stamping Canadian passports, but the one expired Canadian passport I still have (approved 1994 expired 1999) has visa stamps from Chicago (1995) and Ottawa pre-clearance (1997). With such stamps you can prove that you travel everywhere, included to the US, on a Canadian passport (and they let you in). For years.
Re the dreaded form 8854 “expatriation tax return” nonsense — depending on which IRS document you choose to believe that only applies to a relinquishment if it was after 2004 or 1994 at the earliest. You’re two years before that. Don’t file a thing to the IRS and don’t contact them, no matter what it says or you think it says on form 4081. There are no “tax consequences” for you. Particularly if you are prepared not to cross the US border, they can’t touch you — under the Canada-US tax treaty, none of this nonsense is enforceable in Canada for any alleged tax liabilities or penalities in respect of years when you were a Canadian citizen, and if your Canadian citizenship pre-dates November 1998 (yours does, obviously) it doesn’t matter what year or whether you were a citizen of Canada that year, CRA won’t enforce any claims against you.
If in any doubt about the foregoing, speak with a lawyer (I’m not a lawyer). But apply for a CLN using 4079 and claiming relinquishment on becoming a Canadian, just don’t go to the embassy in Ottawa, go to a consulate. As Pacifica notes above, the embassy is a Kafkaesque nightmare you don’t want. Some of their staff have serious problems with attitude and delusions of power. Avoid at all costs. (You can go to any consulate in Canada no matter where you live, even if you live in Ottawa. Pacifica and my wife are both living proof of successful CLNs obtained by Ottawa residents going to the consulate in Toronto.)
*pacifica777, Awesome, I’m so jealous! You have been granted freedom, justice and equality, while and I’m still waiting for the same. 🙁
@Pacifica, Tiger, Schubert, and others,
Thank you SO much for clear and generous responses. I had discussed my situation with law firm that is familiar with cross border issues, and what you are saying confirms much of the info I received. To their credit, they were conservative in their advice and did not try to make me afraid or push me into anything I was uncomfortable with.
Basically I was advised:
Naturalizing as a citizen of Canada was a potentially expatriating act according to specific US laws. What is important was both my intent to relinquish and my actions afterwards. So I documented those. I’ve never renewed my American passport, or did anything else to assert US citizenship since. In fact, the only time I did work in the US was at student jobs prior to moving to Canada. Since intent is also a state of mind, I believe I’m a reliable authority on my intent.
I was advised to document the facts of my relinquishment and then do nothing further unless provoked by some very specific things – such as a direct and personal demand. The underlining sense was, since I am a Canadian citizen, I should not engage or initiate any communication with a foreign country unless I wanted to accept the loss of privacy and other risks.
Advised that US tax collection from long time Canadian citizens was practically impossible unless there are assets within the US or a US bank account. Their firm had never seen this anyway, except for complex cross-border estate or business deals. Confirmed that Canadian government will not collect foreign taxes from Canadian citizens.
Have had little trouble with occasional and unremarkable travel to the states on my Canadian passport and yes I have a nice collection of entry stamps.
My banking is typical middle class online banking and RRSP investments. None of my financial services have ever asked my place of birth and I would never offer it. I’ve asked a few banks recently about opening new accounts and they advise to have a drivers license and Social Insurance Card handy.
My main reason for trying to get official document of relinquishment is to avoid any future banking problems (especially if I wanted to live in Europe or some other country in the future) and to be able to visit the US without hassle. There are places and people I like and admire in the US, but overall it is a sad story what has become of the relationship between the US and Canadians who have a tie of birthplace or family circumstance.
Thanks again and I will read and learn more.
A thought: this site is a unique source of information and also vivid and inspiring personal accounts. It is also a very strong case study of social media empowering people. Have the facilitators ever considered using the archives to create some kind of e-book anthology of the best entries? Could be a best-seller!
@pacifica, tiger, schubert, and others
Thanks you SO much for your fast and generous response. Your comments are similar to advice I received from a cross-border law firm.
Their advice was conservative. To document the facts of my relinquishment and then take no further action unless certain very specific things occur – such a direct and personal demand letter or similar act.
The underlying idea: according to US law I had committed a relinquishing act and done nothing to assert US citizenship since. And I clearly documented my state of mind in doing so. As a Canadian citizen, do not further engage with any foreign country or offer any information unless the situation is pressing.
Collecting US taxes from long term Canadian citizens in Canada is nearly impossible unless there are assets or bank accounts in the US. The law firm had never seen this even attempted except in complex cross boarder business deals or estates. My modest assets and banking are 100% Canadian.
None of my banks or financial service providers have any record of my place of birth, and I am not not to provide that information without referring the request to my lawyer. I have sent letters to various government officials to lobby against FATCA, based as much on the damage such folly it will do to the global economy and its violation of Canadian anti-discrimination laws.
My Canadian passports have a collection of US entry stamps. But while I used to holiday and visit there frequently, I now only go visit elderly relatives and rarely at that.
A suggestion for the facilitators of this wonderful resource. This is both a unique collection of crowd-sourced data and vivid compelling and inspiring human stories. It is also a remarkable example of the empowerment through social media. You should consider publishing an e-book anthology of the best and most compelling stories and comments, organized by subject. It could be a surprise bestseller!!
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@Pacifica
While I’ve written you privately, it would seem weird not to congratulate you along with all the others…after all, to me, you are one of the “originals” from the Expat Forum. That all seems so long ago now and that we’ve all come so far since then, even if it has taken longer than was comfortable.
Your work here is invaluable and I’m sure far more than we know, benefit from your efforts. Thanks for everything!
@iamquincy
Hang in there, yours is sure to come soon.
@AnonAnon and all,
I’ve watched the Toronto consulate calendar consistently for more than a year now and they generally do not make the calendar available until the beginning of the month. I would not read anything into 2 appts left and nothing for January. They generally have 2 sets of 8 appointments available for two or three days per week per month. So at least a minimum of 32 appointments per week up to 48 appointments per week. The attitude there is super and I would encourage anybody to go there-they make it easy.
*With respect to banks asking for a drivers license for new account administration: our province and, I suspect, others as well, recently modified the DL to be compliant with international standards – whatever that means. Anyone here know what kind of information might be exchanged between governments on this basis? What kinds of information the banks are privy to when they have your DL?
*And here is what the CBA says about opening a new account:
I am not a U.S. person. What does FATCA mean for me?
The
majority of Canadians are not U.S. persons and, in most cases, FATCA
will have little impact. If you have an existing account and there is
an indication that you may be a U.S. person, or if you are opening a new
account, your financial institution may ask you to provide additional
information or documentation to demonstrate that you are not a U.S.
person.
If you choose not to provide this additional documentation
upon request, at a minimum, your financial institution may be required
to withhold a tax of 30% on U.S. source payments1that you receive and
send this money to the IRS.
Read the whole thing at: http://www.cba.ca/en/consumer-information/40-banking-basics/597-us-foreign-account-tax-compliance-act-fatca-information-for-clients
I dont know how many banks are applying this right now. We just opened an account at a local credit union – asked for a DL and SSN# – no problem. Things may get worse though when the new IGA comes in.
@*Woofy, I don’t know about Canadian drivers licenses, but US drivers licenses do not include any referece to the holder’s nationality or place of birth. The licenses issued by the various US states are issued to persons who are legal residents of that state, irregardles of nationality, as long as they are legally present in the US. Green card foreign permanent residents of the US are issued drivers licenses. Illegal immigrants are not intentially issued drivers licenses; legally that is.
They dislose your name, address, sex, hieight, weight and the date when they expire. They also contain your photo and signature.
My Peruvian dirver lincences (Brevete) issued in 1966 did not indicate my nationality. It had no expiration date and is valid for life. It also included my foreign resident permanent identity registration number.
My Brazilian drivers license (Carteira Nacional de Habilitacao) issued in 1970 includes my nationality, state and country of birth and profession. It was valid for 3 years, and also included my foreign permanent resident identity registration number.
In both Peru and Brazil persons were requried to pass a medical examination to confirm that they were physically and mentally capable of driving a motor vehicle.
@ Woofy, thanks. I will blog that.
*All I remember about getting the new DL here is that they took my photo and asked for a Physical Location address (we are rural and just have a PO Box) so I just gave em a land location. And all the usual stuff like how tall I am and what colour are my eyes. I don’t know if they can link this to Canadian passport info or anything else the Feds may have on record. But if they can, then I suppose the banks also can.
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Congratulations, Pacifica!!
Thanks for the congratulations, Quincy, Noble Dreamer, Swiss Pinoy and Rodgrod! It sure is a sense of relief!
@ Quincy, I think that’s a good idea to contact the consulate. I recall two people writing that they did and their CLNs must have been sitting in the batch at TO (I think TO got a very large amount sent to them for final processing and send-out), and these two people ended up having them sent out very quickly, like the next day or something. In my case, I e-mailed in October and they e-mailed me back quickly (in about an hour) saying it was still in Washington awaiting approval. I couldn’t really ask them to do anything (it was “only” five months). But in your case, as it’s been almost a year, if it’s still in DC, they might be willing to try to get DC to expedite it. I am quite sure everything is fine with your application, from what you’ve posted about it (you and I sound quite similar), and because TO seems to know what they’re doing and has pointed out to a few people that they had a problem — I don’t believe TO would forward an application to DC if anything was wrong with it. I think DC’s “Canada desk” is overwhelmed with volume and somewhat disorganised.
@Swiss Pinoy, I think you’ll have your CLN pretty soon. From our data, it seems the European ones have an average arrival time of just over 4 weeks. I’m really glad about that because you guys really have a tough situation trying to do routine banking (routine living, basically) without one. Much as we hate waiting, and I do hope DC gets their “Canada desk” up to speed, I can see how time is even more critical for you guys across the pond.
*Thanks to all you generous Brockers for your information and insights. I just recently started reading your posts and thought I would share my experience obtaining my CLN earlier this year in Australia. I was able to get an appointment at my nearest consulate within a week and was told I would need to go back for a 2nd appointment to actually renounce, in order to give me time to reflect on my decision before proceeding. My second appointment was 2 weeks later. I needed to take in my current passport, birth certificate, and proof of my Australian citizenship. I no longer had my most recent (but expired) passport and it didn’t present a problem. I was told my signed oath and documents would be scanned and sent to the CLN processing office in Washington D.C. along with their report on my case. I understood the decision to accept or reject my renouncement was made by the consular staff. They told me there are very few staff working in the CLN processing office in Washington so the length of time to receive mine would depend on their workload at any given time. I couldn’t fault the consular staff who were extremely courteous and professional at all times. They were very efficient and quick in submitting my docs to Washington and I was pleasantly surprised to find my CLN in the mail less than one month later. Hooray! I do feel for you Canadians who are having to wait so very long. My name has not yet appeared on the Federal Register, which I expected by now, so there must be a backlog!
*@Pacifica, Congratulations!! Very Happy for you!!
*@rose, how long ago did you receive your CLN?
We have not been able to figure out whether there is an intentional or uninteentional delay in the publishing of renunciants names in the Federal Register, or whether there is deliberate action, for whatever reason, to not report some names at all. It is a question to which nobody as yet been able to supply an answer.
@Rose,
Welcome to Isaac Brock. Thanks for joining us here and giving an account of your experience in Australia. Yours is the first report we have for renunciation there. Where did you renounce — Sydney or Canberra or other? We’re happy to hear that it was a positive experience for you and happened very quickly. That’s just the way it should be!!
Can we include your data in our Relinquish and Renunciation database and your write-up in the Consulate Directory Report — to help others along the way when they are coming to Isaac Brock to gather information to help them make decisions? If we can, can I get:
month and year of request; month and year of 1st appointment; month and year of second appointment. Date of receipt and actual date of CLN –should be the date of, probably, your second appointment.
Congratulations!!
*@Roger Conklin,
I received my CLN in April. I’m assuming the delay is due to slow/sloppy administrative practices. The CLN processing office has to send the names off which, if inadequately staffed, could take time and staff handling the Register documents could be dealing with a heavy workload as well. I imagine the US in their current budget situation has made lots of staff cuts and renouncing citizens would not be top priority for funding!
*@calgary411
I’m happy to oblige with the details at a later date, just not yet. Ask me in a few months!
@Rose; welcome!
re “I imagine the US in their current budget situation has made lots of
staff cuts and renouncing citizens would not be top priority for
funding!” Strange, they always justify UScitizenship-based taxation of those abroad by pointing out all the services and benefits they provide to us. Maybe they were referring to the countless unwanted hours of IRS staff time spent certifying that yes, yet again, here are another 5 years of meaningless forms from someone abroad.
*@badger
Services to us ex-pats have been dwindling for some time now. One example is trying to get assistance with an IRS issue from Australia. I have had the stressful experience of attempting to sort out a mess from here. The telephone number the IRS gave me in a letter was impossible to dial from this country. The tax help based at the Sydney consulate was closed down and I had to go through the Singapore consulate to get help. Now they have been closed down too and I have my fingers crossed that all is well with my final tax returns and forms (I don’t owe any tax), which I submitted as soon as I got my CLN. I guess if I don’t hear anything from them within the next year I can assume the yoke has well and truly been removed from my neck.
However, I have learned of one “benefit” that can still exist for some ex-pats, including those who have renounced, and that is the Social Security retirement benefit. According to a social security agreement Australia has with the US, some former citizens can still qualify for US Social Security even if they didn’t work long enough in the US for enough credit points because they can be given work credits for work in Australia. I’m not sure how long this “perk” will remain – it’s days are probably numbered!