Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
“I completely agree with you about 4079 and that nosy question that tries to get USC parents to hand over the personal details of their non-US children. Pernicious!”
The only question I see about children on DS-4079 is ‘Have you registered your children as citizens of the United States?’ and the answer doesn’t give away anything. If someone registered their children as citizens of the US then the damage was already done before answering Yes on DS-4079.
But I’ve just noticed this: ‘You are advised to consult an attorney before completing this form.’ I’d say you are advised to ignore their advice.
’13. What ties do you retain with the United States? For example:
[…]
(c) Do you have family or social ties? If yes, please explain. [] Yes [] No’
Yes. I stuplidly chose to be born to parents in the US.
‘(e) Do you file U.S. income or other tax returns? If yes, please explain. [] Yes [] No’
Yes. I stuplidly tried to comply. If I’d been smart, I wouldn’t have complied and wouldn’t have to explain anything here because the question only demands an explanation when the answer is “yes”.
’17. Describe in detail the circumstances under which you performed the act or acts indicated in Questions 8-16.’
Details for Question 13(c): When a man loves a woman very much, they get deluded. But at least they didn’t fuck me — that’s the IRS’s job.
Details for Question 13(e): I wasted 20 days of my life each year, when I didn’t know that it’s illegal to tell the truth on a US tax return. For more details, see the details for question 13(c).
’18. Did you perform the act or acts voluntarily?’
For 13(c) I should have known to choose parents in another country.
For 13(e), I don’t know how to answer. The IRS and judges state repeatedly that people who file returns are complying voluntarily, but is anyone else quotes the IRS and judges on it then the IRS and judges penalize the person for the frivolous claim that filing returns is voluntary.
’19. Did you know that by performing the act described in Questions 8-18 you might lose U.S. citizenship? Please explain your answer.’
Yes, I did know that by stupidly choosing to be born to parents in the US, and stupidly choosing to comply with US income tax law, I did know that I might lose US citizenship. The IRS’s Taxpayer Advocate said so in their report to Congress in 2011, except for some reason she was too polite to call me stupid. Oh wait, I renounced before the Taxpayer Advocate submitted her report to Congress. I guess I didn’t know then what I know now, stupid me.
See, if I can answer DS-4079 then you can too.
Dear All,
Your advice is helpful and confidence-building. FYI my son comes under the pre-June 2017 nonmarital child rule, so I can’t have spent 365 uninterrupted days in the USA anytime before his birth. Unfortunately all the witnesses to my travel as a toddler, the couple of years my parents lived in the USA, are dead, including my Mom. (I met an excited U.S. consular officer some years ago who said — when my child was under 5 and the embassy had the discretion to issue on its own initiative and without State’s approval a certification of birth abroad that I didn’t want — she would accept an affidavit from my Mom that I’d spent 365 uninterrupted days on U.S. soil.)
I think the best bet (if I can’t refuse to do the 4079 for London) is a Swiss renunciation holiday. It would be impossible I think for me to claim relinquishment by facilitated (ancestry) naturalisation, and unbelievable to claim it for my year’s work in the U.K. for a foreign government. But the fee for renunciation is the same (1/10 of my annual earnings). I do worry about ever being a covered expatriate if I wait too long and I am confused about the different rule in IRC 877 and 877A (i.e. 877 adds “(ii) the individual has had no substantial contacts with the United States.”
I inherited a flat which I’m going to rent out, and the SNT/VPT disability trust will own 1/3 of that when it buys the freehold from the freeholder, avoiding U.K. IHT on that portion when my child inherits my share. This doesn’t bother HMRC but it seems to bother IRS in Ogden. I’m confused about the Form 8854 treatment of trusts — and it’s the vagueness of attributing “ownership” or grantor status to a non-beneficiary, non-settlor has has me, well, unsettled and ready to renounce.
I am certainly not renouncing to avoid tax. To put an end to paperwork which I now get done for free but which would cost a lot in the future, yes. I contrive to earn $5500 or so out of my annual earnings as U.S. self-employment because Roth IRAs are nontaxable either in the US or UK but I now have more than 40 Quarters of S.S. Coverage, so if I ever visit the despised country after age 65 I’ll have Medicare Part A during my stay and maybe a $100 monthly S.S. annuity as well paid here. I don’t think renunciation affects those for people who live in a totalisation-treaty country (Canada, U.K., Switzerland & 23 others). Effectively I’m waiving the exemption of the totalisation agreement and paying both NIC and SET on that small amount, although I’ve since read that so long as I don’t claim FEIE paying the SET is irrelevant to IRA eligibility.
I’m not even sure that renunciation would put a stop to that contrivance: my boss tells me of a time in the 1960s when, to force the U.K. to sign a totalisation agreement (which the U.K. refuses to sign as to COLA etc with Australia or Canada, etc. and which for all I know it will denounce with EEA countries after Brexit), the IRS started auditing multinational British firms and imposing FICA for the days their employees were in the USA on B-1 business visas. Without of course giving any SS credit to the workers who had no SSNs.
BTW: the U.K. offers much better benefits for my child than either the USA or Switzerland would, including a bilingual teaching assistant to help him pay attention in the independent (i.e private) French school he goes to. I was told Fribourg is good (vs. Vaud or Valais) but our flat isn’t there and I don’t think I could get work there just speaking French and English. It is living rent-free that makes my life viable as I can only work part-time. (I remember Eliot Spitzer’s father as filing gift tax returns for the cash value of Eliot’s living in an expensive NYC town house. I don’t file gift tax returns.)
My brother and his children live in the USA and despite the “threats” by Schumer, Reed and the consul I don’t think anybody will keep me from visiting him. My total additional cost to visit the USA will be the price of ESTA and if via Canada, eTA. I don’t plan to volunteer anything to my U.S. bank or Roth IRA holder. They can send to my brother’s place all the 1099s & 5498s they like.
ND:
That’s true, but that was done innocently, before it became apparent that to register one’s child as a US citizen is to saddle them with a burden that can be hard to shed. I accept responsibility for what I unknowingly did; I certainly wouldn’t do it all over again, knowing what I now know.
And fortunately there’s no need to even worry about it. The DS-4079 is not required for renunciation.
Quick question:
I can’t find my Certification of Birth Abroad (on the other hand I found my sister’s…) and I refuse to give the embassy my Swiss naturalisation certificate because it mentions my child.
I can’t imagine they can make furnishing those documents a condition of renunciation: people lose these things all the time. Besides, back in the day CBAs were typed on cheap paper guaranteed to rot over time.
“can’t find my Certification of Birth Abroad (on the other hand I found my sister’s…) and I refuse to give the embassy my Swiss naturalisation certificate because it mentions my child.”
Email a few suitable consulates requesting appointment to renounce; choose most convenient; they’ll tell you what to bring; explain about lost Certificate and ask what you need to do.
@GoneSoon
There is no need to even take a vacation in CH, the Embassy there will do the renunciation in one visit.
Yes, if you have 40 quarters of SS payments you will be eligible for part A Medicare when you visit. In fact if you pay them around $100/month you will be eligible for part B too. I did this for a while but later dropped B.
Living in the UK you will receive SS payments with 0% withold. I receive mine with a 15% withold in Switzerland but get a tax credit here for it.
As someone said on Brock, don’t give them any info that they don’t already have.
Good luck and enjoy your freedom.
@ GoneSoon,
(1)
DoS HQ does not require for relinquishment, discourages it actually, but they don’t forbid embassies/consulates from using it. It is really irrelevant to renunciations, as they don’t have to determine intent (as is the case with a past relinquishing act).
If you do use London, you could point out to them that it’s not required, but it may go smoother to just fill it out. Or use a location that does not use the 4079.
Foreign Affairs Manual 7 FAM 1260: Renunciation of US Citizenship
(2)
It sounds like, from what you’ve written, there’s no particular advantage for claiming a relinquishment.
You mention you are already filing taxes.
If you relinquished after 4 June 2004, your expatriation date (for tax purposes) will be considered to be the date you notified State Dept of it (that is, the date you sign the 4079 (which is required for relinquishments) at the embassy, which would be sometime this year, 2018, anyway.
Also as you’ve been filing taxes since performing the potentially relinquishing act, they would likely ask if you believed, at the time of performing the potentially relinquishing act, that you were terminating your US citizenship, why did you continue to file taxes? Having done so is not necessarily fatal to a relinquishment claim, but it seriously throws into question if the person really believed they relinquished at the time they are claiming they did.
Renunciation is really cut-and-dried. They generally just read your forms beforehand; ask you if you understand the consequences; have you sign the 4081 (statement of understanding of consequences), the 4079 (if required) and the 4080 (oath); and, not counting waiting time, it takes about 10 minutes. London and Bern do a lot of them and it tends to go very smoothly at these locations.
For more info, look under “Important Information” in the Sidebar for “Consulate Report Directory,” “How to Renounce/Relinquish” and “State Dept Forms and Manuals.”
GoneSoon – you can get a replacement CRBA from UCSIS:
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-travel/while-abroad/birth-abroad/replace-amend-CRBA.html
@GoneSoon
There should be no problem with you renouncing in Bern.
I expect you have read this but I will post it just in case.
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Acquisition-US-Citizenship-Child-Born-Abroad.html
I renounced in Paris, nobody asked about the children I may have; just stated I could no loner transmit the US citizenship. I know someone who renounced in Bern and it went fine.
@juliette
The only problem with Paris is the constant risk of the French air traffic controller’s strikes.
: -)
GoneSoon:
“I refuse to give the embassy my Swiss naturalisation certificate because it mentions my child.”
You could seek to renounce at a different consulate (e.g. Luxembourg, as suggested by Heidi, or Amsterdam, or even Iceland).
Thus you could just show your UK birth certificate, and your UK passport, and your replacement CRBA. No need to even mention your Swiss citizenship.
@plaxy
He could renounce in Bern too as he doesn’t even have to mention his Swiss citizenship. He is a British born dual citizen from birth.
@plaxy
My son does not need to renounce. He is a bilingual (if a bit autistic, but never mind that) smart young boy too smart to be registered as a U.S. citizen, ergo just Swiss & British. I have the misfortune to have 3 nationalities, 1 of which is surplus to needs. And I am not a “he” but a mother. (We are watching a Quebec movie right now, “My Internship in Canada”. I guess we could immigrate to Quebec, but why?. And of course I will lose the right to a NAFTA visa, assuming my qualifications are on that notorious list of wanted skills.)
@nononymous
With that kind of money he should have had much, much better advice than some clown sending him into the streamlined program.”
one of his italian banks gave him to the irs(although they said they never would) ,no attorney told him to enter the streamline program before that….
Gone Soon:
“My son does not need to renounce. ”
I know. It’s you that’s renouncing, right? Apologies for calling you he.
Gone Soon:
I suggested you might want to renounce in a country other than Switzerland because you mentioned that you don’t want to have to show your Swiss naturalisation document which mentions your son.
Bern asks for “all foreign passports,” so if you have a current Swiss passport, if you renounce in Bern there you will need to show your Swiss and UK passports, and might get asked to show the Swiss naturalisation document.
If you renounce in, say, Amsterdam, you can probably just show your UK passport and birth certificate and not mention Switzerland at all. Haven’t checked any other places but there may well be others that don’t ask for all foreign passports.
The fewer demands the better, IMO.
@plaxy
Re passports
It doesn’t matter what they ask for, she can declare whicheber nationality she likes. The US Embassy are not ‘all knowing’ and will not have info on her Swiss Nationality. That is between Switzerland and herself.
Heidi – indeed, it’s up to the renouncer to weigh up the alternatives and decide what best suits.
@plaxy
My MO now is always to tell them as little as possible.
: -)
Personally I would rather go where they don’t ask, but it’s obviously up to the person renouncing to decide where to go.
@plaxy
Agree
I don’t remember being asked anything. I just filled in the standard forms asking other citizenship (I have two but picked one) and paid my ransom, but this was 6years ago.
@gone soon
i renounced in Florence and it was really a walk in the park,0 questions asked,nothing,nada,took 10 min
the people there were super nice and friendly.
i got an appointment in 5 weeks and everything was done in 1 shot.
@Gone Soon
I renounced in London, UK and I had to fill out the DS-4079. The reason they told me I had to fill it out was because they use it to determine if one has lost US citizenship already. I guess the answer to some of those questions will tell them. For the children question, I just ticked No. I can not transmit US citizenship to my children in any case because I did not live in the USA enough time. They never asked any follow-up questions about the form and I certainly didn’t need a lawyer to fill it out. Maybe if one is trying to go the relinquishment route, they should get their answers checked by a lawyer to ensure the relinquishment is accepted.
This was my experience in any London. The whole process was straightforward and the London embassy were very professional, and didn’t ask me any questions at all.