Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
I just read on the consular report page for 2017 in Helsinki Finland, seems like the staff there were pretty inexperienced and didn’t know what the hell they were doing. It took three appointments for the staff to fill in the forms correctly.
@Heidi
They need to hire a few Brockers temporarily to show ’em how its done! Perhaps a flat rate contract at $2350 per CLN?
@UnforgivenTwo I relinquished and the date on my CLN is the date I relinquished not the date of my appointment. 41 years separate those 2 dates
My father always said; prepare for bear, even if you think you’re going to encounter rabbit. His meaning was that it doesn’t hurt to be over/-prepared.
So preparing and rehearsing my answers and the forms ahead of time helped me, as did reading here at IBS and knowing what I was entitled to.
@Maz
Lol.
Lucky I checked through my documents before they sent them to the State dept as I found 3 mistakes. I suggest everyone read the Embassy docs vey carefully before signing!
@badger
I love prepare for bear, I will remember that one, it must be Canadian.
Yes, I know the date for the CLN is the date of the relinquishing act for a relinquishment.
My point was that, unlike a relinquishment that was years back where they would try to force one into a “taxable” (pronounced: punishable) situation for all that time by forcing one to renounce, three months were not such a deal as to be worth the effort they put into trying to convince me to renounce.
To be clear: they had a letter and the unsigned CLN pre-printed when I got there. Both were dated that day, referenced 349(a)(5), and stated I signed an oath of renunciation before a consular officer. In the end, they only changed the date, changed the reference to 349(a)(1), and swapped out the word “renunciation” with “relinquishment” so that the document reads that I signed an oath of relinquishment before a consular officer, which makes no sense.
I could care less what it is says as long as I am free.
The good thing about it is I can always proudly show my banks proof of what a fine piece of workmanship the highly trained professionals in the US government can produce when you give them $2350 and 11 months to do it (3 months to prepare the documents; 3+ hours to argue about the contents; 2 minutes to rewrite (change a date; change a number; change one word); 7 months to send back to the US, date, sign, and stamp (good thing they didn’t read it: might have taken longer); and 1 month to get it back to me).
I didn’t sign the DS-4083: they did. Things moved pretty fast once they decided I wasn’t going to play their game, so I didn’t even get to see the edited version till it came in the mail. I only got to see the first version when they gave it to me to check if my name was right.
Ok, they did get my name right. Not like my son’s CLN, which was quicker, but which he had to send back, because it had the wrong name and date on it (it belonged to someone else).
BTW: the arguments against issuing me a CLN for relinquishment for taking a foreign citizenship alternated between
– I couldn’t have relinquished by taking a foreign citizenship because I signed an oath 30 seconds before I signed the citizenship document and therefore was not a US citizen at the time I did so but thought I still was, therefore they couldn’t give me a CLN on that basis, because I applied for one based on taking on a citizenship.
– When I signed the oath 30s before I signed the citizenship papers, I thought I was no longer a citizen at that time, but still was because the oath was not strong enough, so when I signed the citizenship papers I could not have done it with the intent to lose US citizenship and was therefore still a US citizen.
With a sprinkling of: my citizenship papers had to be false, because the Germans would never give me citizenship without me renouncing my US citizenship first without the US government’s permission.
I’m not joking. You can’t make stuff like this up.
@ UnforgivenToo
I guess you prepared for the bear and won in the end!
For a country that runs on the largest number of tax documents in the world, the crazy part of all this is that those CLN’s are not even numbered, so they would be extremely easy to forge for the banks.
All I’ll say is that @Heidi had an extremely, unbelievably, easy time of it. I want to tag this as NOT the average.
I’m happy she did– but the reality is that most– do NOT have an easy time.
Be as prepared as you can be, & be prepared to be stressed as you go through it all. It’s not pleasant.
Good luck & happy non-USA-citizenship to you!
🙂
@Jane
I did do some research first, and I chose to go where the reports were favourable. I am not sure where you are but being in the centre of Europe it was somewhat easier to choose the Embassy. Mine was a simple renunciation back in 2012.
I am so sorry that yours was so traumatic.
“For a country that runs on the largest number of tax, the crazy part of all this is that those CLN’s are not even numbered, so they would be extremely easy to forge for the banks.”
Would the IRS care? Or the State Department? Or the FFI? Or the local tax agency?
Forging a CLN to get an innocent law-abiding bank account seems to be a truly victim-less non-crime.
Badger summed it up great, “Prepare for bear, even if you’re going to encounter rabbit.”
In this context, I say go to your consulate meeting like it’s a regular business meeting – it usually is — but, know the law and procedure, just in case, and stand your ground.
I also suggest, particularly in the case of relinquishments (especially those done by a relinquishing act other than naturalisation, which are not as common), that you scan s. 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act and the relevant pages of the Foreign Affairs Manual (see “Important Info” in sidebar). Some Brockers were told by the consulate officer that theirs was the first relinquishment-based application they’d ever done and in some cases the Brocker had to explain things to the consular officer.
Put these relevant pages (from the INA and the FAM) in your folder of papers that you bring to your meeting, and pull them out if needed. Often when there’s a problem with a point of law, it’s not nefarious on the consulate officer’s part, just incompetence. Both are inexcusable, but if it’s simply incompetence (lack of knowledge), as opposed to a deliberate effort to obstruct, you have a much better chance of resolving the issue by showing them the relevant material. You can suggest that they speak with the head of the consulate’s American Citizens Services department, who may be more on the ball (but not always). If they need more convincing, you can also suggest that they call the Legal Affairs department at DoS HQ. There’s been a few cases where the consulate officer did that right then and there and everything was resolved on spot. In other cases, the consulate officer opted to follow up on it later and the person had to go back to wrap things up.
The reports we get here at Brock (see Consulate Report Directory) actually show that most of these meetings go smoothly. There have been cases of bullying/harassment/obstruction, but they are not the norm.
There’s a real problem with believing bullying is the norm. If people believe that, they’re more likely to put up with it.
I ran into bullying/harassment/obstruction at my consulate meeting in early 2012 and, on top of that, they wanted me to do a 2 to 3 hour interview. We didn’t know much at the time (Brock had just started), but fortunately I did know the law and the proper procedure and I was aware of how these meetings were going at other locations (a short businesslike meeting) and assumed it would be the same here.
So instead of complying, I wrote a complaint. As a result, instead of a 2 to 3 hour interrogation, I completed my expatriation in a 8 minute meeting, and – also important — shortly after I spoke with someone higher up the DoS food chain as a result of my written complaint, the embassy quit the shenanigans and things have gone fine there since.
However, after my visit, I learned that this abuse had been going on for over a year before I went there. I spoke with people who had put it up with it. They put up with it because they (and in two cases, their lawyers) didn’t know they didn’t have to — they thought that’s just how renunciation and relinquishment meetings are done (basically expect it to be bad and you can’t stand up to the bullies). So, I think it’s important to know that bullying/harassment/obstruction is not the norm. And also if unfortunately you run into it, you don’t have to put up with it.
Pacifica: “There’s a real problem with believing bullying is the norm. If people believe that, they’re more likely to put up with it.”
Well said.
@jane
what do you mean by “i have been grilled”?
update
i picked up my CLN this week.
it was ready 3 weeks after the official renunciation.
so 6 weeks between my 1st email to the consulate and the official renunciation and 3 weeks for the cln…
9 weeks total.
Everything went super smoothly.
Again,who has been grilled last 3 y in the renunciation process?and if so,what do you mean?
Jane did not answer but anybody else?
it’s interesting for people reading this forum.
@ plaxy
this were your comment to me a few weeks back regarding the filing or not of
form 8854
Heidi – “It’s purpose for you is to demonstrate that your net worth is below 2,000,000.without it you will be considered a covered expatriate.”
Without the 8854 he won’t be considered at all, since he has never entered the US tax system.
so 2 things
1/i do not agree totally because the DOS will send a copy of my CLN to the irs so they will know about me.
2/if i do not file ,i will be considered a covered expatriate automatically
No need for me for this ,i will file but when do i have to send from 8854 ,now or in jan 2019?
my official renunciation is march 29th
thanks
So if you swore the oath in March 2018, then if you intend to send 1040/1040NR and/or 8854, you do so in 2019.
@patrick
You complete the 8854 with your ‘normal’ — and in this case, final — 1040 tax return, and by normal due dates. So after the end of 2018 and some time before around mid-April 2019.
A few quick notes. This won’t be quite the same ‘normal’ tax return that you would have done as a US citizen. You end up having to do a 1040 for the period before renunciation, a 1040NR for the period after, and combining the two. You also have to file the 8854 twice, once with your tax return and once separately to Philadelphia (because the IRS is too disorganised to do its own internal communication). If you don’t have enough income to need to file any 1040/1040NR, you just file the 8854 alone, same timeline as above.
The 8854 instructions contain this information, but do read them carefully as there are three or four different circumstances to which this form applies, each with their own set of unique (and random) requirements — confusing. Only one set will apply to you. Be sure to pick the correct set.
@plaxy and watcher
i won’t file a 1040 because i do not need to ,i had no rev this year,i’m working on a project this year.
i have never filed any tax returns anyways.i’m not in the system
if you’re under the filing requirement ,you do not have to file income tax right?
i will file the 8854 and that’s it.
@Patrick
If you are under the “filing” requirement, then no…I think.
But if you are actually refering to the FEIE amount, as many do, you must file to be able to claim the FEIE.
i just checked the form 8854 on the government website and it has nothing yet for people who renounced in 2018,they have a section fro those that renounced in 2017 so it means they will add the section on renouncement after dec 31st 2017 later this year.
Patrick. You say you have never filed a tax return. I assume that’s because you were always below the filing threshold. One question on the 8854 is ‘do you certify you have compllied for the previous 5 years.’
If you don’t answer yes, you will be a covered expat. in any case.
So , if you were not compliant, ( i.e. you were supposed to file), then better not to file the 8854 either.
If Patrick has never been required to file (because he has always been below the threshold), he’s not required to file a 1040/1040NR for renunciation year.
He is required to file the 8854 to certify 5 years compliance. Since he has complied, that shouldn’t be a problem.
Agreed. We are pointing out two sides of the same coin.
We renounced in early 2017 and filed 8854 in Jan 2018. Didn’t file 1040 or 1040NR for 2017 because income was below the threshold. Still waiting for any word. Don’t expect to hear a thing.
Yes – I agree, you’re not likely ever to hear from them. Ideal outcome. 🙂