Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@steamer
US social security has tax agreements with many countries and if you are a resident alien in any of those you should get a tax credit from your country of residence (IF US social security tax is levied) depending on your treaty.
Here is the SS booklet.
https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf
Here is the IRS tax treaty table for pensions and social security.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/Tax_Treaty_Table_1.pdf
@steamer
Sorry, have just read your second post where you state you are not resident in a tax treaty country.
I believe I read in an old SS booklet that you can receive the full benefit if you enter the US and stay for a full 30 day period/year. Can’t find that statement on the most recent booklet though.
Who knows what will happen in the future re SS payments, we just have to decided what is the best course of action right now.
@Steamer
Page 3
https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf
I think Steamer is asking whether there’s any way for to stop US withholding of tax, once a USC has renounced and lost that USC tax break.
I think the answer is no, unless resident in a country with a US tax treaty providing for resident-country-only taxation
@ Plaxy and Steamer.
Then he has to way up the possibility of a future change of SS rules to future changes in IRS rules and the costs of continuing IRS compliance demands to the loss of 25% in SS income.
I know where my bets would be hedged.
I think weighing up the alternatives is the reason for the enquiry.
Adoptee had previous passport but expired, so don’t expect they have to provide that and can provide birth cert. They do have another citizenship that they can provide documentation for. Does anyone know if you have to provide SSN (suppose you don’t know if you have one)?
@Newbie
You don’t need to provide an SSN when renouncing. Birth certificate and expired passport should be enough to prove US citizenship.
@Nononymous, you sure about that? Because when I renounced I couldn’t remember if I had an SSN and the embassy dug it out from one of my previous passport renewal forms. If you’ve never had one of course you don’t have to provide one, but if you have they may check back through their records to find it.
I think there’s some variance. When I had an appointment and chose not to (long story) I brought the thing and they told me I didn’t need it. But in any case, lack of an SSN shouldn’t be a problem.
Thanks Heidi and Plaxy. Yes, as I said I have no tax treaty in my country of residence. I do have one in my place of second citizenship, but it only applies to residents, not citizens, and I don’t want to live there.
If you read further in that “your payments while outside the US” pamphlet, you see that a non-resident alien will be presumed to be earning the maximum of additional income even if they are not, and thus SS will tax them at 30% of the first 85% of benefits, which works out to 25.5%. I wonder, do other first world countries put as many conditions and penalties on their retirees as the US does?
Yes, it’s a matter of weighing what might happen in the future versus costs (both financial and anguish/stress) of remaining a citizen.
I was just wondering if you agreed that the US would be inclined to throw SS non-resident aliens under the bus when the economic SHTF.
Steamer: “If you read further in that “your payments while outside the US” pamphlet, you see that a non-resident alien will be presumed to be earning the maximum of additional income even if they are not, and thus SS will tax them at 30% of the first 85% of benefits, which works out to 25.5%. ”
That’s because while you’re outside the US the IRS can’t assess your income and your tax liability, if you don’t volunteer the information by filing US tax returns. The SS, as payer of the benefit, is apparently required under US law to withhold US tax at those rates unless the recipient is entitled to a lower rate – either because he or she is a US citizen, or because there’s a US treaty in place that gives primary taxing rights to the country of residence.
“do other first world countries put as many conditions and penalties on their retirees as the US does?”
It depends on the tax treaty, if there is one. Only a few treaties give primary taxing rights on US SS pensions to the residence country. In those cases, the treaty provision is reciprocal. If you’re currently receiving your US SS pension untaxed by either country, you’re in a better position than most recipients of cross-border pensions, because of your US citizenship. Whether that advantage outweighs the disadvantages of US citizenship, you just have to weigh up, as you say.
“I was just wondering if you agreed that the US would be inclined to throw SS non-resident aliens under the bus when the economic SHTF.”
The US doesn’t have the power to throw NRAs under any busses; but they do have the power to withhold US tax on US-source income paid to a NRA.
@Steamer
“I was just wondering if you agreed that the US would be inclined to throw SS non-resident aliens under the bus when the economic SHTF”
I guess in the US anything is possible .
The fact that social security is not a ‘pension’ plan but has been deemed a tax makes it more susceptible, and those with no voice could be the ones to take the hit.
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/05/business/05norris.html
PS Steamer
Having said “anything is possible”, I think it would be highly unlikely that SS would take away SS benefits to NRA’s as not all are renunciants, some are ex green card holders who have returned to their homelands to live /retire. Could they discriminate between the recipients?
It would be detrimental to anyone going to live and work there on a temporary basis and also void any totalisation agreements between other countries equivalent SS benefits (where benefits can be combined)
@Steamer
“I wonder, do other first world countries put as many conditions and penalties on their retirees as the US does?”
Not that I am aware.
BUT the UK will only give cost of living increases if the retiree is living abroad in certain treaty countries. I believe their old Commonwealth friend Australia is not one of them!
Hi there,
Thank you for the renunciation page. This is such a helpful resource!
My question is: after renunciation of U.S. citizenship in a foreign nation, is it possible to reapply for a greencard and immigrate back to the U.S. at a later time?
It’s a strange, and almost contradictory question. But here’s the story:
I was moved from my native Australia as a teen by my parents who moved to California. I never wanted to be here, and my heart has always been in Australia.
Despite this, I did become a naturalized citizen in 2009. It was more of a strategic move, rather than a patriotic or emotional one. I was planning on moving back to Australia, and wanted to have accessibility to move back if my parents became ill.
Shortly after, I met my American now-husband and married. I’ve been patiently waiting for him to complete his grad program this upcoming May,2018 and have submitted for his Australian residency last month. It looks like 2018 may finally be the year I go home.
I do plan on renouncing my U.S. citizenship once in Australia. Although I’ve voted since 2009, I have no capability of doing so afterwards, I rarely use my U.S. passport as it is, have no real emotional connection to the U.S. and to be honest, find the taxation of expats ridiculous and a looming cloud.
However unlikely, if my spouse hates Australia and wants to move home, would it be possible to come back with him sponsoring me for a U.S. greencard? I realise that I’d be beginning at the back of the line, and that’s okay. I have no interest in getting U.S. citizenship again. I’m just more concerned that if he wanted or needed to go home, that my situation would allow him to return and for us to be together. It’s doubtful this will happen, but it’s an important factor on this big decision.
Thank you so much!!!
Ryan
@Ryan, short answer, yes it’s possible. Once you renounce you revert back to your old non-US status same as anyone else. So far they haven’t managed to make the Reed Amendment on immigration workable and there doesn’t seem to be much enthusiasm to do so in future despite Mr Reed’s efforts to make them.
@Ryan
Just to confirm Medea’s post and to add that the Reed amendment (if ever implemented) only applies to covered expatriates.
i’m in the process of renouncing and i was told to provide a SSN for the meeting,there’s even an SSN form to fill,you do not need a SSN card but a number.
@patrick
If you do not have a social security number, I believe that you can now apply for one through the Embassy.
If you never had one, there is no point in getting one. Just say you never had a card or number
To my knowledge, an SSN is not a requirement for renunciation. I know people have renounced without one; and I checked the DoS Foreign Affairs Manual, 7 FAM 1260, and the DoS renunciation forms to see if there’s been a recent change, but saw none.
I definitely agree with Portland’s advice, “If you never had one, there is no point in getting one. Just say you never had a card or number.”
If they still insist on an SSN and you do not want to get one, other possible options are: use a different embassy; or contact the Legal Affairs Dept of American Citizen Services at Dept of State HQ in Washington to find out if it is indeed required (I’ve found them to be very knowledgeable about expatriation law and procedure (unlike some embassy/consulate officers)).
Could anyone perhaps advise me on filling out the Renunciation Form DS-4079?
I am low income but have managed to get all the required years of tax returns done. My situation is very straight forward. Have lived outside of the US for much of 40 years as I also have an Irish passport.
How precise do I need to be in providing information on the form in terms of dates? For instance- I do not know the exact dates of when I arrived in London to live and then returned to US to live there for 5 years. That was almost 35 years ago. Also don’t know exact date of becoming Irish citizen.
Did not save old passports. And anyway, there would be no info on them as I would enter the US with my American passport and then come back with Irish passport.
As long as I estimate close to the dates required will this be acceptable?
Thanks so much!
@Jordan Page
I would go ahead and just use aprox dates, if you don’t know they sure don’t either!
DS 4079 is not really required for a renunciation only reliquishment, but some embassies religiously continue to use it.
@ Jordan,
I was also dealing with dates from about 40 years ago, with one return to the US early on. I couldn’t recall exact dates of entry and exit, but had pretty good idea of the months, so I put the 1st day of the month (it might actually have been the end of the previous month) and handwrote “approx.” They didn’t mention anything about it and I got my CLN.