Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@plaxy
While I have been saying for the longest time that I am not overly concerned about the IRS or taxes, I am very much concerned about loss of bank accounts and control over who has access to private information.
It must not beforgotten that it is the IRS that will be receiving this information and storing it in unsecured databases allowing ID thieves very easy access to their prefered victims, those who have the least opportunity to learn of the theft of their ID and little they can do to stop it. While of little concern to the ID thief, the damage to USCs living abroad is far greater that it can be for homelanders.
@Medea,
You mostly have it. All you have to do is place a slash inside the last tag, which tells it to stop bolding or whatever is inside the tag. If you don’t put in the slash, everything after the first tag will be bolded. I have to leave out the tags < > > or else you won’t be able to see the b followed by /b both -enclosed inside tags
So it becomes:
without any tags
Establish that you have expatriated for tax purposes;
with both tags
Establish that you have expatriated for tax purposes;
Sorry if this is not so clear; I thought it would be but then when the code is added, you can’t actually see it, only the effect……I took the liberty of adding the slashes in your comment………
@Patricia, thanks. Don’t really understand these codes on this format. I’m used to vBulletin forums and it’s easy to do there. Just highlight the text then press the Bold/ icon.
Um, well almost.
@Medea
I know what you mean. I had to learn a bit of it in order to function here.
I could email you a simple list but the idea is simple once you get used to it.
one tag < with a command in it> the text then followed by a closing tag with a slash before the command
bold can be either b or strong
em for italics
blockquote for blockquote
I’ll work it out. Put the slash in the wrong place I think.
@Medea
Just emailed you something simple.
I didn’t see any slashes. That’s why the entire comment was bolded after the first tag.
Yes, thanks for that Patricia. I’ll keep it safe so I can refer to it when I need to bold something or do the other things.
@Alice
just file form 8854 ,you’re below the $2M limit and say you’re compliant with the last 5y of income tax.
this way you’re not a covered expat.
if you do not owe them anything,it it’s not a problem.
Not having filed fbars is not income tax ,so it does enter the tax compliance field
this is what i will do,once i get the CLN
what reasons do you guys that have already renounced gave when yo gave up your nationality?
i heard you should not mention taxes ,seems obvious but in the end it makes 0 difference.
@Patrick I haven’t filed a tax return in 30 years though to declare my foreign income (even though I owe no tax). So FBARs aside, I’m not compliant. Omitting to send back the 8854 form is one thing but outright lying on it makes me nervous. Perhaps an artificial distinction since if they wanted to check either way they could but I feel like they would have less to go on if I just didn’t file anything at all.
I relinquished as I had never intended to return.
I wonder what the reaction at the US Embassy would be if you wrote, “I believe that the USA has become a dangerous, predatory, world’s-countries-autonomy-stripping, global threat & I am ashamed to remain a USA citizen as via FATCA, my life & livelihood is also being threatened in my chosen country of residence”.
Or such….Think it would even raise an eyebrow? I think they really don’t give a rat’s-patootie.
@ Patrick,
You are not required give a reason and they usually don’t ask. But if asked, it will probably go smoother if you just say something rather than pointing out it’s not required. So, just have a short neutral one-liner in mind, something like because my whole life takes place in France or I don’t have any connection to the US.
Note also, there’s two check-boxes at the bottom of DS-4081, Statement of Understanding of Consequences, just above the signature block.
It says, “I do [box] do not [box] choose to make a separate written explanation of my reasons for renouncing/relinquishing my United States nationality.”
Just check the “do not” box. That’s what just about everyone does.
@patrick.
I had prepaid a written statement as in Switzerland I had had by bank accounts closed and couldn’t function. The Consul said that it really wasn’t necessary to include it but I insisted they include the statement anyway. I doubt it was even read in Washington, they know the reasons why we are renouncing but don’t care. If you are asked, which I doubt, just say your life is in Italy and will remain there.
@patrick
Re renunciation: I declined to state a reason on the official form. However, the consulate official verbally asked me why I was renouncing. Thanks to Brock, I was expecting this and had ahead of time jotted down some points which I read to him and he apparently transcribed.
I said something like:
– I have no real ties to the US.
– I have no intention of ever living in the US again
– Canada is my home, where my life and family are
No copyright attached to the above points 🙂
BTW, I know of one person who was asked “why now?”, so you may want to have an answer for that ready. IIRC I was prepared to say something like “I only recently found out that it was possible to renounce”, but I wasn’t asked, and it doesn’t seem to be a common question.
Good luck!
Yes, always good to have an answer ready just in case. I wasn’t asked either, but if I had been planned to say the IBS standard answer – I want to simplify my life. I could have added that apart from a couple of visits I hadn’t lived in the States for over 40 years and had no plans to ever return to live.
There’s no obligation for you to give any answer either written or spoken if asked. It’s entirely up to you whether you do so or not.
thank you all for your kind answers
i’ll keep you posted
Hi, I’m considering renouncing and am being urged by lawyers to do it with the (expensive) assistance of lawyers. I’d rather avoid the expense – any views out there?
@Bob, yes. Absolutely no need for a lawyer to get involved. The process is easy. Contact your US embassy/consulate and ask for an appointment to renounce. They’ll send you the relevant paperwork to fill out and give you an appointment date and time. These are the forms required:
https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4080.pdf
https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4081.pdf
You may also be asked to fill in this form.
https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4079.pdf
Note that it’s really designed for people who think they may have accidently lost their citizenship and want it back. However, some embassies/consulates use it for renunciations too.
Fill the forms in and send them to the embassy/consulate along with the supporting documents. On the day go to the embassy/consulate, go over the paperwork with the staff to make sure it’s correct, pay the $2,350 fee and then stand in front of the Consul/Vice Consul and swear the oath of renunciation, sign the forms and it’s job done. That’s it, nothing more, finished, finito. The embassy/consulate will send your file on to the State Department in Washington for final approval, but unless they think you’re being coerced in any way or are mentally incompetent they can’t refuse it.
So certainly no need for any lawyer to be paid an exhorbitant fee for something you can easily do yourself.
Thanks Medea, I had a sneaky suspicion that may have been the case! Where/how do they deal with the Covered Expatriate issue? It doesn’t seem to be addressed on any of the forms that you referred to.
They don’t. Covered expat is a tax issue and they are not allowed to ask you anything about your tax status, only to tell you you may have outstanding US tax obligations to deal with.
8854 is the form you’ll need to fill in after you renounce. The instructions are here:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf
and the form here:
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8854.pdf
More on the taxation and FBAR side of things in this thread:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/expat_tax/
@Bob
“Where/how do they deal with the Covered Expatriate issue? It doesn’t seem to be addressed on any of the forms that you referred to.”
The answer is nowhere. The State Department deals only with the actual renunciation. They might mention that you should contact the IRS after you have renounced but taking that advice is optional, depending on your personal circumstances. There is a great deal of useful information here on Isaac Brock. Great bed time reading.
A colleague told me the other day of a seminar she had attended in Sydney dealing with renunciation. It was presented by members of a Canadian law or accountant firm. Their message was that the IRS was definitely (without any shred of doubt at all) going to catch up to all those who had not filed, and so they should become tax compliant and consider renouncing ASAP, tasks the Canadian firm of course was able to assist with.
If I were to be unkind I might think that this is scare-mongering in order to obtain work. Any thoughts out there?
It was Moodys Gartner, doing their road show.
I missed the chance to go to one of their seminars in Alberta. I intended to ask some pointed questions about tax treaty protections for dual citizens, why they think all non-compliant US persons are doomed, etc.
I was hoping someone from the Australian contingent might give them a bit of shit. I will keep checking their site and the next time they do one here, will go and raise hell.