Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Medea
Yes, It’s really Odd why some embassies religiously hold onto that form. I asked around and chose the closest one that gave me an emphatic NO, so I took a short trip and renounced there. The consular official I spoke to there said she couldn’t understand why others persisted with it.
@heidi, I never needed to fill it in when I renounced at the embassy here in Switzerland in 2013. Just did the Oath and Statement of Understanding, provided the supporting paperwork and that was it.
Medea
I got an appointment within two weeks versus 3 months in Ch who also sent me the DS4079 at that time, (also got to visit my sister) . Maybe Ch pulled the 4079 later?
Department of State has never required the 4079 for renunciations (though it has been, and is, required for relinquishments). It doesn’t even make sense for renunciations. It’s use for renunciation is discouraged, but embassies/consulates are not forbidden from doing so.
Anyway, up to July 2015, the Foreign Affairs Manual (7 FAM 1264) said:
In July 2015, 7 FAM 1264 was revised to read more clearly [emphasis mine]:
Why do some embassies/consulates still use it? Dunno, but we’ve observed a fair bit of odd behavior at some embassies/consulates over Brock’s six years of existence and, based on their words and actions, I get the feeling some embassy/consulate personnel never read the Foreign Affair Manual.
Foreign Affairs Manual: 7 FAM 1264
“I get the feeling some embassy/consulate personnel never read the Foreign Affair Manual.”
About half way through my enlistment in the navy, I had an occasion to read “The Regs” and was shocked and stunned at was contained therin. Nobody reads them, nobody knows them, and yet boiler fires are lit, anchors are weighed and mooring lines cast off and ships get underway.
Try to use the regs to protect yourself and the whole command comes down on you like a ton of bricks. Important documents go missing from your service record. Qualifications and awards earned disappear. Loss of hearing is magically unlost. Exposure to hazardous materials didn’t happen.
If anyone here is just now learning that bureaucracies do not know the contents of their own regs, lord help you.
the officer at the consulate emailed me that it was better to fill the ds 4079 anyways(i emailed him before that i would fill the 4079 with them since it was unclear to me) and i could ask questions that i do not understand when i get the appointment to renounce in march.
It just occurred to me that California being California, perhaps the state is contemplating constructing its very own exit tax. (And by that I mean taxpayers who move from California to another state, not just taxpayers who leave the US.) The exit tax at the Federal level is so diabolical that I can imagine Calif. legislators studying it admiringly and thinking: “Wow, what a cool concept. Why don’t we cook up our own exit tax”.
Far fetched? Maybe, but governments everywhere seem to be run by and for lawyers nowadays. Never say never.
NJ got there first (sort of)
http://www.woodendlaw.com/exit-tax/
Blow me down. California’s got one too and it sounds awfully familiar.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2017/01/11/will-california-tax-man-let-you-move-states/amp/
Jeeze, that’s bad news. Its possible the California Franchise Tax Board may be after me. (Hmmm, damned if I can remember whether I sold that old VW van at a gain or a loss.) The good news is that I’ve moved at least 20 times since I left a half century ago.
California’s exit tax has been brought up before. They also continue to tax you after you have moved from the state, if you have bedn a resident for a certain number of years. Having a California DL for a number of years seems to trigger it.
Back in the 1990s I warned by my shipmates to not get a California DL as they would tax you after leaving the state.
Various states have been contemplating for a long time and as posted above, some even already have exit taxes.
A lot of people here seem to say that this or that can not be done with out knowing that it already is being done.
Yes, when I was contemplating where to retire, ie to stay in the US or return home to Europe, I was warned off having anything to do with CA. That is buy no holiday home, retain no professional license, no bank account, etc as they will look for any criteria as an excuse to tax you there, especially if you chose to live in a state that has no state tax.
As I first learned of California charging tax to exresidents in 1989 or 1990, and as it was not a brand new policy then, it is safe to say that this practice is at least 30 years old. Yet, no one knows about it.
I’d bet most Californians don’t know about and would think you’re loon if you tried to tell them about it, unless they have moved away for a spell and returned or know someone who has moved away.
People who do not live in California do not know about it, unless they have lived there at one time. A thirty year old practice of taxing exresidents and still no one knows about it.
Another point. For 30 years I have wondered what mechanism California uses to tax its exresidents. Did the other 49 States agree to it? If so, why? Was there a court case that decided it? If so, on what grounds did the court cite to rule in favor of California? I have never been able to find any answer to this.
I do not know how it works, but have known that it does for 30 years.
“For 30 years I have wondered what mechanism California uses to tax its exresidents.”
It gets steadily more bizarre. Apparently there is a thing called the State Board of Equalization. It has five members. If California sends you a tax bill and you want to dispute it, you need to bribe selected members of the SBE so that you win your case.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2016/10/20/to-fight-california-tax-bills-procedure-counts/#2df998b083df
Strange, that.
Still do not know how they get former residents to pay up though.
@Japan T, it’s the same with the fact that US citizens are supposed to continue filing tax returns wherever they live in the world. That law has been around for decades, but when we moved from the US to the UK back in the late 60s no one bothered to tell my mother that fact because it simply wasn’t enforced then. She never filed any US tax returns after she left the country and I never did either since I didn’t know.
It’s only around the early/mid-2000s that they started putting notices up in the embassies/consulates about it and putting the info on the back pages of your US passport. My last one issued in 2007 has a sentence about US taxes on the back page, but neither of my two previous passports do – and the oldest one was issued in 1985.
@heidi
i red your text about form 4079 in the renunciation guide.
the 4079 form i filled out does not contain a part III
you sign a first part if you answered no to all things that can ” potentially cancel your us citizenship”
then if your answered yes to any of these questions ,you go to part 2.
But there’s no part III
@Medea Fleecestealer
Yea, I know. It was through renewing my passport that I learned of that requirement.
I suspect there is much we do not know yet out there.
Apparently the 1986 Tax Reform included a provision that “beginning in 1986 you may be required to provide a tax statement” when applying for or renewing a passport.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=coHhKf8BraMC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=tax+reform+1986+passport&source=bl&ots=lYzhSZ7u_-&sig=HgtmZXpo4RQtnYV9QQJKYKWKiVU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjssP6R6KLZAhVPYsAKHReXCQgQ6AEwA3oECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=passport&f=false
Never got asked for that, myself, and remained in blissful ignorance of CBT for another 28 years. But it seems likely that that’s what prompted the appearance of the statement in the passport info pages.
Nice of ‘em, ain’t it. Make a change and don’t tell nobody until you’re a couple of decades behind in filing and owe 500% of all the income you’d earn in three lifetimes in late filing fees.
Yep. Maybe because they didn’t feel comfortable telling USCs to their face. People would’ve been turning round and walking out of the Embassy leaving the little blue book on the counter.
@patrick
That’s why many of us avoided consulates that insisted on that form.
Best to email the Embassy and ask specific questions. It may have changed since the guide was written.
@Heidi,
Re:
I was curious about the comment you referred to because, as the writer encountered a Part III, it must be from someone who renounced quite a while ago, before the post-2009 (FATCA) rush. So, I did a scan of the Brock site (posts and comment) and the Consulate Report Directory (it has a couple of reports that pre-date Brock), but I couldn’t find it. Would you post the link if you have it? Thanks.
BTW, the DS-4079 (and its forerunner the FS-581) hasn’t had a Part III since at least 10 years ago. At that time it consisted of Part I (questions), Part II (Statement of voluntary relinquishment of US citizenship), Part III (more questions).
Since last major revision of the form, ca. 2007, there’s only been Part I (questions) and Part II (Statement of voluntary relinquishment of US citizenship). The 8 questions that were in the old Part III were moved into Part I (along with the 7 questions already in Part I, and they added several new questions with sub-questions).
@heidi
that’s why i sent it with some questions left unanswered because i do not want to
write an erroneous answer,the consulate officer emailed me that i will be able to ask questions if i did not understand some things.
@Pacifica
Sorry to have caused confusion
It was from the renunciation guide here on Brock
http://www.renunciationguide.com/expatriation-process/renunciation-step-by-step/
I just copied and pasted all in a hurry.
Glad to know the Embassy will guide Patrick through this form that really does not apply to him!