Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@ Patrick,
I’d suggest sending a follow up e-mail to the embassy. Maybe that will get results regarding a date or possible dates.
If, however, you get the same vague reply, you might try contacting DoS’ Consular Affairs/OCS/ACS Division Chief for your Zone.
That’s the Washington office at DoS that handles CLN matters and it’s divided into five Zones. The Division Chief for Europe is Rob Doughten at 202-485-6239
Several Brockers have found Division Chiefs quite useful in getting the wheels turning when they were not getting any reply from their embassy/consulate. It might be worth a try if you get only the same vague answer from the embassy after a follow-up attempt.
Department of State Telephone Directory, page OD-17. It has phone numbers and snail mail addresses; unfortunately not e-mail addresses. It’s updated regularly and we also have a link to it in our Sidebar (under “Important Information” “State Dept forms,manuals,contact info”).
hi
i resent a follow up email and was answered that it was impossible to have an exact date and that it could take months…i was advised to also try other us consulates in italy for availabilities, so i did,i’ll let you know the responses..
welcome to the fantastic world of the administration…
Hi Patrick
You can try other consulates in Europe if it is convenient for you. You may find a quicker date and the EU has a great train service!
us embassy in florence answered first ad iwa asked to return these formsA questionnaire
the form DS-4079
the form DS-4081
SS-5
A scanned copy of your Social Security card
why do they need a copy of my SSN,i do not have that.
@patrick
Email them back, tell them you don’t have a SSN card, how do they suggest you obtain one.
@patrick
If you get no response from Florence,
there is a SS benefits office at the US embassy in Rome. You could contact them to see if they know how you could obtain a SS card
https://it.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/fbu/
I used the SS office in the Embassy in Frankfurt and they were very helpful
@ Patrick,
Here in Canada, they’ve only been requiring “your U.S. Social Security card, if you have one,” It’s not required by DoS that you have a Soc Sec Number in order to renounce. I’d just tell them I don’t have one.
Soc Sec numbers were not issued at birth in the US until around 1988 (I’d have to check for the exact year). Prior to that date, people generally didn’t get them until they were ready to take their first job, usually in their mid/late teens. So there’s quite a lot of people who left the US as children and never had a Soc Sec Number because they never had a reason to.
Excellent suggestion from Heidi above to try booking at another consulate. You might try a different consulate in Italy — as their booking procedure might be different than Florence’s — or in a neighbouring country. A few locations say they won’t take people from outside their country or consular area (though they’re supposed to), but quite a few others do and several Brockers have renounced at consulates outside their consular area/country.
@ Patrick,
Update to my previous comment: I just googled and learned that form SS-5, which you mention Florence Consulate sent you, is the application form for a social security number, which I didn’t know. Sounds like this consulate is really keen on SS cards.
So, if you don’t want to acquire one and Florence Consulate insists on it, it might be worth trying a different location as others have renounced without one. We’ve noticed that while certain renunciation requirements and procedures are universal, mandated by Dept of State, others vary from place to place and SS number is not a universal requirement.
@patrick, if you’ve never had an SSN and don’t want to get into the US tax system DO NOT fill in SS 5. There’s absolutely no requirement for a renunciant to have an SSN.
If you do have one, they should be able to track it down from any previous US passport renewal forms. That’s what the Swiss embassy did when I renounced. I couldn’t remember if I still had my card, but they found the number from my last passport application form.
Patrick There is no point in getting a social security no. in order to give it up. Tell them youn don’t have one.
Isn’t obtaining a SSN an extremely painful process for adults who’ve lived much of their lives outside the US?
I’m pretty sure you can do it at the consulate now, rather than having to go to a SS office in the US.
I can’t imagine why anyone at this late date would try to get a US SS number if they were lucky enough to not have one. (Unless they wanted to move to the US and work, of course.) Not having one is almost like a get-out-of-jail-free card because without that number the IRS is virtually helpless. No SS number = never in the US tax system. The whole point of renouncing is to avoid the US tax system and get a CLN so one can bank in one’s country of residence without problems.
Who knows, maybe some Consulates are setting a trap for unwitting renunciants by requiring one. I’d find another Consulate that doesn’t care about it.
” No SS number = never in the US tax system.”
The IRS assigns its own numbers to people who don’t have other numbers. Even when the IRS rejects an ITIN application, they assign some kind of number but they don’t tell the victim what the number is.
I’m sure the IRS does all sorts of stuff they don’t tell us about. My point was simply that there is no point in volunteering to get a “tattoo” during the renunciation process if you don’t already have one. Many have renounced with no SSN and without filing anything. I’ve not heard of anybody who has had problems.
@Norman Diamond if patrick doesn’t file the IRS doesn’t know about him so can’t assign any sort of number to him. As far as they’re concerned he doesn’t exist.
Hey y’all, I’m looking for yet more feedback and consensus in my never-ending quest for a way out of this mess. As an update, the hubby and I have taken our first steps on the very long ladder toward freedom. We sold a couple of very good local rental property investments and sunk the money into a so-so (but not terrible) property investment in a passport-for-investment scheme. Currently our application is mired in bureaucracy, so we are stuck in that Twilight Zone of having begun the process, but not being officially “approved”. Hence, the clock hasn’t even started ticking.
Once it starts ticking, it will be a minimum six years before we can actually claim citizenship. By then we’ll be so elderly that I’m starting to question whether it was all worth it.
So here’s the latest dilemma: having sold those two properties, Uncle Sam is expecting its share of the capital gains, including phantom currency gains. Considering how long ago we bought those places, the gains are substantial. We simply don’t have the cash to cover it. And on a deep philosophical level that everyone here can agree with, we absolutely 1000 percent do not think that the USA has any right to tax us on those gains, and rub salt into the wound by inflating those gains due to shifts in the exchange rate.
Here are the choices we now wrestle with. Your usual kind and intelligent feedback will be appreciated:
1) Declare the gains, borrow the money to pay up, so that we don’t have to worry about being caught for willful tax evasion.
Downside: in some ways, this defeats out whole purpose. We want free of US citizenship so the USA won’t rob us of our future. Paying up will rob us of our retirement, and more.
2) Fill out our US tax forms as we’ve always done for the past 30 years, conveniently omitting the property sales. DO declare on our FBARs the sudden windfalls in our bank accounts both here and in the other country (the funds obviously had to be transferred, so we end up with two very substantial maximum balances).
Why? Because if ever audited, the FBAR penalties are potentially more ruinous than the penalties for failing to declare the property income (we can try the defense, “Duh. We thought we’re only supposed to declare employment and business income”). In any case, we know for sure that at least one of those two banks is making FATCA declarations of our account (our local bank has never asked our nationality, and has us listed as local citizens…which we are not, but have never corrected them).
Downside: Huge red flags raised on our FBARs. If the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network has some algorithm set up to look for sudden spikes in bank balances, we are screwed.
3) Fill out our US tax forms as we’ve always done for the past 30 years, conveniently omitting the property sales. Lie on the FBARs.
Downside: Discrepancy between FATCA report and FBARs. Penalties that will drive us both to suicide.
4) Drop out of the US system. Just stop filing. I see more and more talk here about how seldom US expat tax returns get singled out. Of course, with hindsight I wish we’d never entered the system in the first place. Then we could continue to live our lives in more peace than we have now. But we’re in there. We could drop out today, refuse to acknowledge any future enquiries, and how on earth would they ever find us?
Downside: Six years from now, when we are finally in a position to renounce, we’ll want those CLNs. How would we ever become 5-year tax compliant? Even if there’s a Streamlined program still in existence, never in a million years could we claim any innocence or non-wilfulness in having stopped filing in 2018.
5) Drop out of the US system, stop filing. Forget about the passport-for-investment scheme. If it ever comes along, nice. Remain US citizens forever.
We are hovering between choices 2 and 4 at the moment. I’d be grateful for thoughtful advice.
Please do not suggest:
1) Look for citizenship-by-ancestry schemes. Been there, done that. No such option.
2) Take up local citizenship. No. Just no. We’re not living in Canada, for those of you who don’t know me.
Thanks everyone.
FYI, Barbara, I don’t know when you sold but in Canada the bank only reports the balance at the end of the year for FATCA – not necessarily the highest bank balance. Pretty unreal, isn’t it? You can verify with the bank where you think they’re reporting you.
I’m sorry your options aren’t great (no one’s are it seems).
@Barbara – not having 5 years of compliance will not stop you from getting a CLN. When I renounced they didn’t ask about my US tax compliance. You will have to sign a form that says that you understand that renouncing does not extinguish prior US tax liability. Once you have renounced before a consular officer, you will not be subject to US tax going forward – whether or not you exit cleanly by filing form 8854 and certifying 5 years of compliance. So, your option 4 looks like a reasonable option in your case. It stops the pain going forward and doesn’t decimate the savings that you have accumulated outside of the US. The only real downside is the potential IRS phishing expedition.
@Karen, you’re right. After reading IBS posts for a couple years now, I should know that the CLN is not dependent upon tax compliance. But I forgot. On the other hand, never filing 8854 makes us covered expatriates forever. It’s like spilling a mess on the carpet and never cleaning it up.
The main thing that makes me nervous about simply dropping off the radar is that I do know one long-term expat who was randomly audited and tracked down. Now, that was several years ago and she was compliant and in the system. However, I can state for a fact that it is not true that expats never get paid attention to by the IRS. I guess I’m still not fully convinced that those who’ve been compliant for 30 years can simply drop out without raising a red flag.
Your problem Barbara is that you want to do the right thing.
Like me.
Sometimes the right thing means not doing the legally prescribed thing, which puts you in free-fall. Free but falling. Only time will tell whether it’s a soft or hard landing.
#NotPayingThis
I dont know the whole story, but you need an alternative passport to renounce. They wont let you go stateless, as far as I know.
Barbara – “she was compliant and in the system.”
“I guess I’m still not fully convinced that those who’ve been compliant for 30 years can simply drop out without raising a red flag.”
If she had stopped filing and then got audited, that would indeed suggest that the audit might have been the result of a red flag. The fact that she had not dropped out and got audited, just confirms that complying is riskier than not complying. The audit rate for non-resident filers is not zero.
“never filing 8854 makes us covered expatriates forever.”
This seems to me to be a metaphysical anxiety, like thinking that not going to church “makes” a person a “sinner.” The confiscation of an individual’s retirement as punishment for renouncing US citizenship is law only within the US, and has never been tested in court even there.
@barbara
Number 4 seems best to me, don’t give them any ammunition.
What can they do to collect penalties if you have no funds there, send you a letter, send you another?
I understand your country does not have a collection agreement.
@barbara
Just rereading your post, 6 years is a long time to wait for a passport by investment and to hold your nerve.
You could continue to fill your usual tax returns and omit the new fbar and see if anything happens. There have been reports of statements from agents of ignoring those abroad because of the lack of the ability to collect. You always have the choice to stop filing at a later stage.