Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@ Canadian12345
Welcome to Brock! You can definitely DIY a renunciation and a final tax filing. I’ll leave your other questions for others to answer (broke both wrists so typing is limited for now).
a). There has been prolonged discussion as to whether or not your son is automatically a US citizen. Most of us say no. He would have to apply for a pssport or SSN first. Others disagree. You could google acquisition of US citizenship by child born abroad for the current rules. There is a current court case revolving around the difference between a child with a US mother vs. a US father ( because of children born to US soldiers)
The question is unanswered. If your son is eligible it isn’t clear that ii is automatic. In any case they don’t yet know he exists.
b) It doesn’t much matter if you renounce or relinquish. Relinquishing may save you a year of tax filing. All you have to do is prove intent. Intent is proven if you take no actions as a US citizen. (voting, filing taxes, travelling on a US passport)
You don’t need a lawyer or accountant to renounce. E-mail an enquiry to
. https://ca.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/loss-of-nationality/
and they will give you detailed instructions.
c). There is no evidence expatriates will be treated differently than any other Canadian when travelling to the U.S.
The correct email address is
CanadaCLNInquiries@state.gov
@Canadian12345, it really doesn’t make much difference since the procedure seems to be the same for both now. Previously applying for a relinquishment was free, but that changed a little while ago and now it’s the same fee of $2,350 as for a renunciation. Canada seems to need you to fill in this form:
https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4079.pdf
for both a relinquishment and renunciation, even though it’s totally irrelevant for renunciation purposes.
These are the other forms involved in a relinquishment/renunciation – so you can have a look at them.
https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4080.pdf
https://eforms.state.gov/Forms/ds4081.pdf
So the choice is really up to you.
Note that after you’ve done the relinquishment/renunciation, you’ll still need to file an 8854 form to exit the US tax system cleanly.
https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf
If you don’t you will be a covered expatriate regardless of whether you meet the other criteria or not.
You certainly don’t need professional help. The actual relinquishment/renunciation process is easy and straightforward. You make an appointment, send them the required documents, go to the appointment and relinquish/renounce and that’s it. Since you’re up to date with your US tax filing finishing the paperwork for that will also be easy.
As for your son, here’s the government page about it.
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Acquisition-US-Citizenship-Child-Born-Abroad.html
Basically if you haven’t registered the birth with a US embassy/consulate then as far as the US government is concerned he doesn’t exist and they have no claim on him in any way.
@canadian
i’m doing this alone and it looks easy
i emailed the us embassy,they asked for a copy of my passport, i sent it,now i’m on the waiting list and waiting for my 1st appointment..then after the 2nd appointment and the offivcial renunciation ,i’ll file the form 8854.
the posters here are great and very helpfull
as for your kid it’s pretty simple
from what you say ,he must be automaticaly a us citizen at birth.
here’s the text ,it’s pretty clear
“In general, a Child Born Outside the U.S. is a Citizen at Birth when the Child’s Parents Are Married to each other at the Time of Birth IF… AND…
Both parents are U.S. citizens at the time of birth,
At least one parent lived in the U.S. or its territories prior to the birth.
One parent is a U.S. citizen at the time of birth and the birthdate is on or after November 14, 1986
The U.S. citizen parent had been physically present in the U.S. or its territories for a period of at least five years at some time in his or her life prior to the birth, of which at least two years were after his or her 14th birthday.
If the U.S. citizen parent spent time abroad in any of the following three capacities, this can also be counted towards the physical presence requirement:
Serving honorably in the U.S. armed forces;
Employed with the U.S. government; or
Employed with certain international organizations.
Additionally, time spent abroad by the U.S. citizen parent while the U.S. citizen parent was the unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person who meets any of the three conditions listed above can also be counted.
patrick – “he must be automaticaly a us citizen at birth.”
Only under US law, which does not apply in Canada. A child born in Canada to USC parents is indistinguishable from a child born in Canada to non-USC parents and can live a free life.
Canadian12345
Your child has no need to do anything.
The US Government may automatically grant him citizenship but unless he claims it there is nothing they can do.
Ireland has a similar ‘gift’ to the non Irish born children of parents born in Ireland, but this time it really is a gift and is there for the claiming or leaving as the choice may be.
The US could never understand why parents now would reject their offer.
Canadian12345. Only 1 appointment in Canada. You have your choice of consulate. The wait was 6 months last Year in Canada. we say your son is eligible to becone a US citizen.
Some good news about wait times in Canada. I got wait times from the embassy/consulates in Canada booking system robot last week and it seems to have improved from last year. They’re saying it’s currently:
Ottawa – 2 to 3 months
Calgary – 3 to 4 months
Halifax – 4 to 5 months
Montreal – 2 to 3 months
Quebec City – 5 to 6 months
Toronto – 4 to 5 months
Vancouver – 3 to 4 months
Hope that is indeed correct because it is an improvement (Toronto was up to 10 months at one point) but of course would like to see it still shorter than it currently is at all locations.
@Canadian12345
Re: US citizenship for your child. No need to take any action immediately. He is most likely a US citizen according to US law but with a Canadian birthplace that citizenship can remain “dormant” until he is 18. That’s a perfect scenario since he doesn’t have the burden of US citizenship for the time being but could claim it later should it turn out to be advantageous for whatever reason (live in the US, go to school in the US, etc,). Just keep the all relevant information in a safe place should it ever be needed.
Re: Relinquishing vs. renouncing, dates are important. If you file a US tax return for a period after you became a Canadian that could damage a relinquishment claim. For instance, if you became a Canadian in February 2017 you would only file a US return (and FBAR) for the period from Jan 1, 2017 up to your naturalization date. If you file for all of 2017 that would be acting like a US citizen even after your claimed relinquishment. Its kind of a moot point nowadays because the cost (US$2350) will the same either way so think through all the details before you make the final call. Relinquishment could potentially be viewed as somewhat less suspect than renunciation by a grumpy guard at the US border but so far I have heard no reports of any troubles either way.
Hi Everyone,
Wow, thank you for all your advice! I’m thinking now that renouncing might be my best bet because i did file US taxes after i became a Canadian citizen. And like you all pointed out, there seems to be little difference between the two now anyway.
I’m very happy to see that many of you have done this on your own without the help of a professional, as I have been quoted upwards of $10,000 for this service. I think it still might be prudent to hire someone to audit my last 5 years of tax filings just to make sure it’s complete and not missing any forms. Any thoughts on that?
I definitely don’t want to bring my son to the attention of the US government. As far as I know they don’t know he exists..unless it was something that would have been disclosed in the tax filing? i’m not sure.
But either way it seems silly that they could “force” US citizenship on someone who has never lived there and has only 1 US citizen parent. They really shouldn’t have the ability to come after him when he is older and demand that he file/pay taxes…or at least one would hope that is the case.
So essentially the steps are to:
1) request an appointment with US consulate
2) attend appointment and recite the oath of renunciation
3) file form 8854
4) file one more year (or partial year) of US taxes.
then i’ll be home free?
thanks again!
@Canadian12345, yes that’s it – all done. So long as you have 5 years of US filing, including the last one, you’ll be done and dusted with the US.
Just don’t forget under 2) pay the $2,350 fee before taking the oath. 3 and 4 are done together, you file the final year and attach a copy of the 8854 form with it iirc – but check the 8854 instructions.
thanks pacifica777 for posting the updated wait times. It looks like consulates in Canada are anywhere from 2 to 6 months wait time. Does anyone know approximately how long people are waiting for their CLN’s from these Consulates in Canada?
I read on another thread about someone who went to the consulate in Iceland and had very little wait times both for the appointment itself and also for receiving the CLN. It just so happens that I will be travelling to Iceland at the end of May. Should I try for that one, or stick to one in Canada?
Thanks Medea!
Is there a thread specifically for people telling their renunciation stories on IBS? I havne’t been able to find one so far, and it would be helpful to see successful renouncer’s stories/timelines.
@ Canadian12345,
There’s the Consulate Report Directory thread and in its main post it has a link to the Directory — 265 pages of people’s stories, arranged by location, and a timeline chart in the appendix.
Note:In the timeline chart, for some people there’s no information about the date of their receiving their CLN. That’s because we’ve lost contact with some people, but so far no one has reported not getting a CLN following renunciation (it’s basically a done deal as this particular relinquishing act (renunciation) is witnessed by a Dept of State official).
You can also reach the Consulate Report Directory from the Sidebar in the box entitled “Important Information.”
@ Canadian12345
This link will take you to Brock’s compilation of consulate reports:
http://catseyesap.com/crd/Consulate%20Report%20Directory%202018.01.pdf
Dr. Stephen Kish did indeed have a smooth and speedy renuciation experience in Iceland, albeit rather gut-wrenching, so he fended off our natural instincts to congratulate him afterwards. May all go well for you, wherever you choose to do the deed.
@ pacifica777
You beat me to it but I had scramble back into the safety of my right wrist support to type. 😉 The consulate report is one of many great things about Brock. Thanks for making it happen.
@Canadian12345
“I’m very happy to see that many of you have done this on your own without the help of a professional, as I have been quoted upwards of $10,000 for this service. I think it still might be prudent to hire someone to audit my last 5 years of tax filings just to make sure it’s complete and not missing any forms. Any thoughts on that?”
Don’t bother wasting money on expensive professionals (AKA compliance condors!!) for either the renunciation process or double checking your past returns. US$2350 is bad enough. You will find everything you need to know right here on Isaac Brock.
If the IRS has a problem with any of your filings they’ll let you know. Most never hear a word from them. Remember, with the exception of US source income, the IRS only knows what you tell them anyway. Unlike the CRA you will never get an assessment or a thank you from the IRS so if you hear nothing that’s normal and good news. The Consulate will tell you exactly what you need in the way of forms and documents to accomplish the renunciation.
@Canadian12345
You could try emailing the Embassy in Iceland to see if they could give you an appointment while you are there. I believe the CLN was received quite quickly from there.
@maz57
“Most never hear a word from them.” I caught up on filling in all that IRS paperwork (did it myself, Canadian12345, like so many others … I wasn’t willing to waste any more of my family’s funds on this injustice), I sent everything in. About 4 months later, I can home to find an envelope from the IRS sitting in my mailbox. Scared the beejeebers out of me, since I’d always heard that you never hear back unless there’s a problem.
Turns out they sent me a nice little CRA-style “we agree with you” statement just for my 1040NR filing. Rather weird. But far better than I feared at first!
Seems weird to have to go to Iceland altho that’s exactly what Stephen Kish did.
Contact them and see- some countries have cut back on taking non residents.
Do not second guess your prior returns. There is no greater red flag than an amended return.
No need to spend 10K either.
lets say you get an apointment in Canada on June 15 2018
You renounce then and receive your CLN about a month later.
You have already filed 1040 for last year (2017) and are up to date. You have filed the requisite 5 years.
Your 1040. for 2018 covers the period to June 15 but is not a return. It is a statement attached to your 1040NR for the balance of 2018
The 1040 NR ( with 1040 attached ) and form 8854 are all due by April 15 2019. Acopy of 8854 goes with your tax return and a copy to the Philadelphia office. Instructions are confusing, complex, poorly constructed but eventually doable by anyone with patience.
“Do not second guess your prior returns. There is no greater red flag than an amended return.”
Well stated. Somebody on Brock a few years ago (like maybe Norman Diamond??) explained that the most important principal to keep in mind when filing a US tax return is that it must be “processable”, i.e. their computer system is able to deal with it without human intervention. An amended return breaks that golden rule and results in a human looking at it and asking questions; no good can possibly come from putting yourself in that situation. Probably a good principal to keep in mind when dealing with any bureaucracy.
hi guys again
how long does it take to have a 1st appointment with the us consulate for the renunciation process?
i sent my passport to the us embassy here in italy ,6 weeks ago and still no answer,the reply was,”thank you ,you are now on the waiting list”…
what are you guys experience?
ciao
@ patrick
I hope that was only a copy of your passport that you sent them. You can scan the Brock Consulate Reports to read about other renunciants’ experiences but unfortunately there are no reports from Italy at this time. Each country and consulate can vary somewhat in treatment of CLN seekers. Wishing you good luck and please keep us posted about your progress.
http://catseyesap.com/crd/Consulate%20Report%20Directory%202018.01.pdf