Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@uncletell
I expect by your name you are in Switzerland.As part of their non prosecution agreement they had to prove that all their US customers were US tax compliant and that the bank was not complicit in hiding accounts. Hence them dumping their US customers or a few banks compelled by the state asking for continual proof of compliancy.
Italy is a model 1country and I suspect Patrick’s bank does not want the hassle or expense of US citizens.
Hi Uncle Tell, nice to see you again after so long.
Looking at form 8854,
7 List all countries (other than the United States) of which you are a citizen.
a Name of country
b Date you became a citizen of each country listed in line 7a
How you became a U.S. citizen By birth By naturalization
Given the Canadian government gave me Citizenship at birth after I naturalized in 1996, I’d be the rare renunciant who’d be qualified to check both. Of course I’d check the one that benefits me the most, which would be “by birth”. Hypothetical question: had I done nothing to reestablish my US Citizenship after I took Canadian in 1996, would the change in Canadian Citizenship law in 2009 disqualify me from applying for a CLN based on a 1996 relinquishment if that benefited me more? Keep in mind that a relinquishment prior to 2004 did not require US tax compliance or to notify the US government that you’d relinquished. This presumes that I would for some reason need to acquire a CLN for some purpose. Or am I missing something (quite likely)?
@Heidi
Yes I am in Switzerland. I was born in the U.S. to Swiss parents and therefore am a dual citizen at birth. Fortunately I never told any of the banks here that I am a U.S. citizen. All the need to know is that I am a Swiss citizen living in Switzerland, “Basta”. I am compliant with all U.S. tax and FBAR requirements and none of my accnts. are over 50k anyway, so they have nothing to fear but fear itself.
@BB
Thanks for the welcome, it’s been a while 🙂
I am neither a lawyer nor tax consultant. I am like most of the folks here, just an ordinary “Joe the plumber” trying to make sense of all this CBT, FBAR,……. nonsense. 🙂
Heidi -“@uncletell
I expect by your name you are in Switzerland.“
Lol. The association that popped into my mind was “Tell Uncle” 🙂
What is the connection between “Uncle Tell” and Switzerland”
@plaxy
I just combined Uncle Sam with Wilhelm Tell 🙂
And the two of them, hopefully involuntarily, tearing my heart in 2.
@plaxy
I guess you are too young to have seen the British children’s TV production of William Tell with Conrad Phillips. With British parents and a Swiss grandparent I loved it.
Uncle Tell also has a Swiss flag. I guess we have all been torn apart in a multitude of ways.
Ah, I see. Interesting.
“And the two of them, hopefully involuntarily, tearing my heart in 2.”
Sadly, Uncle Sam has a long history of tearing at hearts.
“And the two of them, hopefully involuntarily, tearing my heart in 2.”
Sounds more dramatic than it really is now, but at the time I thought it fit the situation.
Heidi – I hadn’t heard of that series. Just looked it up – at that time I was still in the US.
“I guess we have all been torn apart in a multitude of ways.“
I wouldn’t describe it as feeling torn but certainly would agree that the US has done a lot of damage.
As did all the European colonizing countries too, I acknowledge. Switzerland is innocent in that regard I believe?
My family have been affected, some can’t get past all this US ‘ exceptionality’ brainwashing and they can’t really understand and feel bitter about my deflection.
Switzerland’s neutrality has had its critics but it worked for them and it also saved my grandfather’s life when he was interned here after contracting TB in a WW1German Pow camp.
It’s hard when you have children in the US.
I have siblings etc in America, but fortunately for me my children weren’t born there and are not American.
BB –
I don’t think residence-country citizenship law would be an issue unless it nullified your naturalisation.
But as you say it’s hypothetical since you used the US citizenship post-naturalisation. Same thing happened to me. I could’ve had a free CLN…
bB. They take your word for it. Whether or not to complete the balance sheet is absolutely unclear.
( why would we expect anything different?)
8854. is meant for 2 completely different sets of people which is why its so f****** up. It covers those who expatriated recently as well as those who expatriated under the old 10 year rules.
The balance sheet is not relevant for duals at birth but they appear to want it filled in . Pay your money and take your choive.
@uncletell
european banks do 2 things in general
1/they ask you for ssn ,us fiscal id and other documents to see if you’re compliant or and
2/ they just don’t bother with ALL us persons,you’re born in the us ,left at 6 months old like me,2 non us persons as parents,they don’t care ,you’re a us person therefore you’re unwanted and need to submit more and more documents that cost more and more$ and they often cancel your account,it’s crazy.
The fatca law is totally dumb,in europe we have automatic exchange of bank accounts if you’re non resident,so impossible to evade taxes,the fatca law aims at residents of other countries too which makes 0 sense at all.
A french that has an account in italy being an italian resident won’t have his bank account datas given up to french authorities,if he’s a french resident yes.
Typical american,we mix everything and BOOM and who cares about collateral dammages..
@Uncle Tell
You still holding out hope CBT will be a thing of the past in a couple of years? Please tell me if you know something I don’t know…
@plaxy
Ouch! Had I not voted for that lame brain who brought in FATCA (ouch), I’d have been able to relinquish without the renunciation fee AND tax filing, double OUCH!
@portland
Whatever is the most inconvenient and invasive is probably the correct thing to do.
“@plaxy
Ouch! Had I not voted for that lame brain who brought in FATCA (ouch), I’d have been able to relinquish without the renunciation fee AND tax filing, double OUCH!”
If you had relinquished while relinquishment was still free; it changed in 2015.
I wouldn’t change my vote. That election made an impact far beyond America. I’m glad I had the opportunity to participate, even if it did cost me $2350.
Besides, renouncing was great – I thoroughly enjoyed it. 🙂
Yes, I have been well aware of what the circumstances have been since 2011, two years after Obama was elected the first time. Even then when the cost to renounce was $450, many predicted that the fee for obtaining a CLN for a relinquishment would not remain nil. They were proven right.
Ok, to be clear (and honest) I didn’t take Canadian citizebship in 1996 with the intention of relinquishing my US. As a matter of fact, I waited to become a Canadian citizen until such time laws changed and I knew I would not lose it.
That said, who knew what my intentions were? Had I not voted in US elections in 2009, I could have made the case for a relinquishment for 1996 at any time when relinquishments were “free”, and would not have been subject to any US tax filings as the relinquishment took place before 2004.
It’s not worth letting them mess with your head – forever creating laws that impute evil design to innocent actions. You just have to treat it as a purely bureaucratic matter: what’s possible now, under the current rules.
People’s intentions are of course none of their business, and the crazy thing is that they don’t even care. It’s just show-off politics. They dream up these vindictive laws, the laws go on the books, and the idiocy is set in stone.
Fee is inescapable. Final filing is not.
@BB
“You still holding out hope CBT will be a thing of the past in a couple of years? Please tell me if you know something I don’t know…”
Unfortunately not, but there is a German saying “Die Hoffnung stirbt zuletzt” ==> “Hope is the last thing to die”.
As long as keeping my U.S. citizenship causes me no financial problems I will hang on to it. The cost of living here is getting higher every year and when retirement time comes having a possible option on where to retire might be a nice thing. Who knows?
@Ah But Uncle Tell
Do you qualify for Medicare in the USA, very important when retired!
Just re-read form 8854’s instructions. What I had remembered was this:
“Certain dual-citizens. You can qualify for the exception described above if you meet both of the following requirements. You became at birth a U.S. citizen and a citizen of another country and, as of the expatriation date, you continue to be a citizen of, and are taxed as a resident of, that other country.
You were a resident of the United States for not more than 10 years during the 15-tax-year period ending with the tax year during which the expatriation occurred. For the purpose of determining U.S. residency, use the substantial presence test described in chapter 1 of Pub. 519.”
This, it seems, exempts one from “covered” status but not from filing the form (correct me if I’m wrong), which is made to detect “covered” expatriates (?). Seems ridiculous to exempt someone from a tax but not from filing the form designed to help calculate that tax. Also, as I read that sentence again, it seems to mean you need not only to be dual at birth but actually living in the country of your non-US citizenship. Therefore, in theory, a dual Italian-US at birth would need to be living in Italy, not, say, France, to escape covered status.
@Fred
Yes, you have it right, my thoughts entirely.
I guess the 8854 is just to state you have been ‘compliant’.
But, they don’t seem to have grasped the concept of the EU, being able to live and work freely within it, strange for a country itself made up of States.
Hello All,
I have been lurking here for a few days trying to gather as much information as possible and I must say what a great community this is.
I was born in the US and have since moved to and obtained citizenship in Canada. I have lived in Canada for several years and have been a citizen for about 1 year. I have a wife (Canadian) and child (born in Canada). My child has lived his entire life here in Canada and I have no intention of applying for US citizenship for him. However, i was a little bit confused about whether he might be an “automatic” citizen. Can anyone shed some light on this?
Secondly, I have no intention of ever moving back to the US and i want to be able to invest and save for retirement like any other canadian without worrying about filing yearly to the US, potential fines, and having to pay out large sums to the US upon my death. I am lucky in the sense that I have just started out in my career not too long ago and have not accumulated enough assets yet to be considered a “Covered expatriate”. I keep reading about the fear of the US govermment potentially blocking “covered expatriates” from entering the US in the future and that worries me as i still have some family there. So at this juncture i am thinking it would be best for me to give up my US citizenship before i accumulate enough assets to become a “covered expatriate”. I have been US tax compliant up until this point, however, i am not entirely sure if all the right forms have been filed every year.
In my situation, would it be better to relinquish by stating that i intended to give up my US citizenship when i got my canadian citizenship a year ago, or just renounce instead?
For those of you who have successfully renounced or relinquished, did you hire professional help? Is it possible to do it on my own, given my situation seems a bit more simple than most? (Non covered, tax compliant, no assets in the US, etc)
Thank you in advance for reading my lengthy questions.