Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
That’s an interesting discussion on the renouncecitizenship site but I’m not sure it’s possible to deduce unknowns from knowns when trying to fathom IRS actions, given the level of error, deception, disinformation and spite.
The Consulate can’t inform the IRS until the CLN’s been stamped. At that point, the consular workers has in his hands a piece of paper which he can easily photocopy and mail, or scan and email. I ask myself, why would he not.
I don’t think the list is published by the IRS as a workaround to protect the DoS – or not only that. I suspect the list is published by the IRS rather than the DoS because it’s a way of scaring people renouncing into worrying that perhaps the IRS keeps track of who renounces and tracks the person down if they don’t file an 8854. In reality, that doesn’t seem to happen.
Appearing twice is probably just a mistake. The temp wrote you down on a list, got distracted and put the CLN copy down on the wrong pile, and months later a different temp wrote it down on another list. It probably doesn’t mean a thing more than that, or somethings similar.
@plaxy
I can understand my cln and 8854 hanging about on someone’s desk from one quarter to another, but for 5 years?!
True – could it be someone else with the same name?
My name is somewhat unusual and middle initial is also the same
ID theft. perhaps?
Using someone else’s name to renounce would seem to defeat the purpose.
I just can’t conceive of a system that would produce this. I was afraid my file had been pulled out for some ‘nefarious’ reason. It least that article states it has happened to others
“Using someone else’s name to renounce would seem to defeat the purpose.”
I would think so too, however, if someone had a dark secret associated with the actual name to kerp silent at all costs and had been safely using this ID for decades, not impossible.
But I have to agree that it would be unlikely.
@JapanT
I did have my identity stolen in the US many years ago but it was all sorted.
I think we may be moving into fantasyland here 🙂
May be, but thrn we are left with your file sitting on a desk for five years (or perhaps behind the desk after falling of it and only recently found) or they are looking at tour file again despite the fact that you are no longer a citizen and have completely checked out.
“I just can’t conceive of a system that would produce this. I was afraid my file had been pulled out for some ‘nefarious’ reason. It least that article states it has happened to others.”
Best not to try to understand their systems. Even TIGTA struggles.
They don’t have the resources to go back and scrutinize files from five years past for no reason. And no reason to try, since you’ve renounced.
@plaxy &JapanT
If that report is true, then there is a whole lot of files that have fallen behind that desk……!
I know they can only scrutinise 1040’s for 3 years, but not sure of the SOL for 8854’s?
Anyway, all t’s were crossed but it’s just a pain to see my name in any way connected to those bunch of thieves again.
Phil Hodgen on closure:
https://hodgen.com/closure-after-expatriation/
@plaxy
Thanks, amen to that.
The information Phil Hodgen provides in his Juy 2016 newsletter about closure is useful. The three steps for the normal process he mentioned and further discussed were:
1. File tax return +
2. Silence from the IRS =
3. Closure (after 3 or more years).
When completing step 1, one can, and people often do, remove uncertainty about whether the final return reached the IRS by sending it in using a service that provides tracking.
For step 2 you can partially fill the silence from the IRS by requesting a Tax Return Transcript for your final tax filing year. Online transcripts not available from outside the US, so a paper copy will be sent through the mail after some time has elapsed. According to https://www.irs.gov/individuals/get-transcript this type of transcript is available for the current tax year and for returns processed during the prior three years.
While the transcript isn’t closure per se and does not preclude future auditing, it does include taxes paid and owing, and it is only available after your return has been processed. The transcript in effect confirms your return has been processed which I think is better than silence, even if it’s not closure. As I didn’t willingly miss anything when filing, and my income and net worth are low, I am going to have that party now that I have the transcripts rather than wait for 3 years as Phil suggests.
@heidi
Sounds like your CLN was forwarded to the Department of Redundancy Department.
People are paying the big bucks to get shamed twice? Shame on them.
@bubblebustin
A two for one, I got a bargain!
I guess it’s a matter of perspective!
Re: Social security – my experience – I renounced over 3 years ago – and sent a registered letter to the US social security informing that I did not want to receive any benefits (I never worked enough in the US to be eligible) and would they please remove me from their system. My SS number was no longer active, as I had renounced. That letter was sent over 2 years ago. However, I continue to receive yearly updates from them…I did consider phoning the helpline, but decided the less done the better, as a registered letter did not have the desired effect.
A registered letter does appear to have worked with the voter registration system, as I no longer receive absentee ballots.
@allou
If your declaration of not wanting Social Security benefits was based on principles then fair enough. But if it was based on not having worked enough in the US to be eligible, then make sure that a longer period of employment in a country with a totalization agreement with the US doesn’t entitle you to some Social Security benefits. I worked for just over 2 years in the USA, about 8 or so quarters, and many years in Canada, and get a small US Social Security retirement benefit, as well as much larger Canadian benefits. My wife who never lived or worked in the USA also gets a little Social Security. The Canadian employment years add to the US years for the purpose of qualifying for US benefits, but don’t count towards the amount. Just a thought. Also the Social Security that’s paid by virtue of a totalization agreement does not attract the Windfall Elimination WEP tax that can be deducted if you qualify solely by virtue of your US contributions (i.e. 40 or more quarters). Although I renounced, I wanted to get the benefits I had paid for, no matter how small. The small amount of Social Security is my only US-source income and is taxable only in Canada per treaty, so doesn’t trigger having to file with the IRS, which might have killed the deal for me.
@Allou
Here is a link to the SSA booklet for non resident alien social security benefits which lists countries with whom SSA has an agreement.
https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf
fn0 is right, why not claim if you are entitled to do so, after all you have paid into the system.
Whether you decide to claim or not, I would recommend any contact with the SSA is best done through their offices in the American Embassy which covers your country. I tried writing to the SSA in Philadelphia over a period of 3 years and got nothing but computer generated letters that were totally incorrect.
I eventually contacted the SSA office at the American Embassy in Frankfurt (which also deals with Switzerland) and they sorted out my problem overnight and called me personally in the process.
@fn0 and Heidi – thank you for the input and link. I am not yet retired, and the reasons for my initially deciding not to apply later are 1. I did not want to give any more information aside from the the years of IRS forms I did after my OMG experience and before renouncing 2. I did not want to re-enter the system after spending a lot of time, energy and worry to get out of it. 3. I assume after renouncing that my SS number is no longer active, and did not want to apply for an itin. I can understand folks who have paid a lot into the US system applying for benefits. Once again thank you the info 🙂
Points 1 & 2 may be good reasons not to apply, but 3 is based on an inaccurate assumption. Renouncing citizenship or abandoning permanent resident status does not cancel or remove a Social Security number, and an ITIN would not have to be applied for. I have quit the US tax system twice, once simply by abandoning my green card on a I.407 form, and once by renouncing, and neither time was my Social Security number cancelled. Even someone was never a US citizen or permanent resident will be given a Social Security number, not an ITIN, if they are entitled to Social Security based on their USC or PR spouse’s record. A Social Security card issued to someone who isn’t a US citizen or permanent resident will not be valid for employment, but is valid for other purposes for life as far as I know. Having a valid Social Security number does not mean you have to file taxes. That would only be necessary if your US-source income is high enough to trigger a need to file. A few years worth of US Social Security by itself won’t do this. I believe this information is correct but it should not be relied on as professional advice.
allou,
I agree with everything fn0 said. I’d like to add that when SS benefits are paid to a non-resident alien, the SSA will withhold 30% US tax on 85% of your benefit (so a net 25.5% withholding) – unless you can claim a treaty exemption. The point of withholding at source like this is to remove the need to file form 1040NR. If you have no other US source income, you would not have to file a US tax return.
@allou
The SSA administration are withholding agents for the IRS, if and when you decide to claim you will have no interaction with the IRS.
Depending on your resident country there may be no witholding, depending on the treaty, eg the UK and Germany have 0%, France has 30%,, Switzerland has 15%. Some countries have no treaties but there are rules under which you can still receive them. You can read the link I posted to the SSA book for NRAs.
Your benefits will stay in the system until you decide if and when to claim them.
Your SS number stays valid even after renouncing.
You have no need to do anything until the time comes to claim them.