Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Stephen
Surprise, surprise! NOT
Ok here is my report for Pacifica so my experience can be recorded in the Consulate Report Directory:
Request for forms made on May 1st. Was given an automated response immediately.
Request for an appointment was made on May 15th. An email reply confirming my appointment date at the Vancouver Consulate was sent on June 12th.
I showed up for my scheduled appointment on August 14th.
My CLN arrived in the mail in less than a month on September 11th.
———————————————————
Now as for the appointment itself in the Vancouver Consulate it was completely uneventful. I just signed in outside, was escorted in an elevator to an upper floor and went through a security that was less painful than any airport I have gone through. (And I didn’t have to remove my shoes which I thought I was going to have to)
My appointment was for 2:00 pm but I arrived early at 1:40 and I went to a counter and there was a gentlemen waiting there for me. He just explained that I would pay the $2,350.00 and would have to wait 2-3 months before I got my CLN. He stressed that I should not lose it because there would only be two copies ever made (One sent to me and another kept with the government) and that as a result I should photocopy the CLN to keep as a backup. He also explained that after I renounced I would officially not be a US citizen and I should keep my payment receipt to show anyone in the meantime (like a border guard or a bank officer) if I needed proof. He explained that another officer would go over the consequences of renunciation and that I would have to affirm that I was voluntarily giving up my US citizenship. I then paid him the $2,350.00 and got a receipt.
I had to wait for about 40 minutes in a chair and there was another gentlemen sitting quietly who I learned later was also giving up his citizenship. When I was finally called the whole process took 5 minutes. The officer was polite and asked why I was giving up my citizenship. I explained that I didn’t want to owe allegiance to two countries and that I had lived in Canada for half my life and it was time for me to make a commitment. He nodded and didn’t ask any other questions as to my motivation. I had to raise my arm and read the official affirmation that I was voluntary giving up U.S. citizenship. I then handed him my prepaid Canada xpresspost envelope and that was it. I did ask him how long it would take and he didn’t commit any timeline. He just said when everything was ready they would send me the CLN and that was that.
I took the elevator down to the ground floor and walked out on a sunny crisp day on downtown Vancouver and felt a spring to my step and relief! It was amazing! I literally had a natural chemical high go through my body!
Congratulations, Valentina! And thanks for sharing your story, which I’ll add to the directory. Glad to hear it went well, and super that it came within a month too.
BTW, re: ”He stressed that I should not lose it because there would only be two copies ever made (One sent to me and another kept with the government) and that as a result I should photocopy the CLN to keep as a backup.”
He was a bit off there, as a person can get a replacement CLN from DoS if it is lost or destroyed ($50), but definitely good advice to make a copy or certified true copy anyway. A CLN can be replaced through this office, Order Copies of Passport Records. They deal with several documents as well as passports, including CLNs.
Oh thanks for the great advice Pacifica! I can rest a little easier knowing it is not the end of the world if my CLN is lost or destroyed. By the way, what is a “certified true copy?” Do I have to go to a Lawyer or Notary to get that? I never heard of the concept!
Do you think that issuing CLN’s within a month will soon become the new norm? The consulates seem to be streamlining and improving their internal processes which is a good trend.
I’m so grateful for the community I have found here! It’s like striking Gold!
@Valentina, congratulations and happy to hear it all went so smoothly.
Yes, you need to go to a public notary with the original CLN. They will look at it, make however many copies of it you want and then certify them. The notary will sign and stamp the copies to that effect.
Usually just an ordinary photocopy will do for things like travelling to the States or giving to your bank if they want a copy, but sometimes you need a certified copy of things like birth certificates, marriage certificates, etc, for officialdom. I needed certified copies of my birth certificates and marriage certificate to claim my Swiss and British pensions since I didn’t want to send the original documents in the post.
@Valentina,
A certified true copy (aka certified copy or true copy) is a photocopy signed and sealed by a notary (in some provinces called a commissioner of oaths) or a lawyer. They’ll take a look at the original and the photocopy, then stamp the photocopy with a rubber stamp which says something like “I have compared this copy against the original document and certify it is a true copy” (wording varies between provinces) and sign it.
In many situations, as Medea Fleecestealer wrote, a regular photocopy of your CLN will be fine. I decided to get a certified copy, figuring that in case I ever need one, I’ll have it already.
No clue if issuing CLNs within a month will become the new norm, but I sure hope it’s indicative of that.
Just news : I’ve recently had my appointment in the Paris embassy. Their answer to my email response was swift, and delay to get appointment of e few days.
I met two different persons, ne for the paperwork and an officer for the assessment of my renunciation. They were very professional and it all went well.
Nets steps, receive CLN (hopefully, but I don’t understand what could get in the way), and clear things with IRS (form 8-something as well as form 1040 for 2017 income).
@Juliette, congratulations, you’re no longer an American citizen. If it’s a straightforward renunciation rather than a relinquishment then nothing can get in the way unless the embassy/consulate/State Dept decide you’re either being coerced by someone else to give it up or are mentally unable to understand what you’re doing.
It’s the 8854 form – this is the one that exits you cleanly from the US tax system. If it’s not filed then you will become a “covered expatriate” even if you don’t meet the wealth/income criteria so it’s important that you complete it and send it off when you need to next year.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expatriation-tax
Right now?
We need out of USA.
Seriously.
I have read on the internet – if you renounced US citizenship and get a certificate your name is entered in a registry with the Home Land Security.
This registry creates a file with your name on it. This file is then circulated amongst other security agencies. It is in effect a police file.
Why do you get a police file?
Because there is an American law that states:
“To give up ones country is to declare war on the United States of America”.
You made a threat to the US gov’t.
Is this true? Have you ever heard of this before?
There’s no law stating that to renounce is to declare war on the United States of America or that the act of renouncing equates to making a threat against the US.
However, it is true that a copy of the CLN is sent to DHS/USCIS, FBI and IRS. Here’s a link to Dept of State’s procedure manual regarding Inter-Agency Co-ordination and Reporting Requirements.
Some relevant US links below.
https://www.federalregister.gov/agencies/financial-crimes-enforcement-network
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Crimes_Enforcement_Network
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/02/09/2017-02699/quarterly-publication-of-individuals-who-have-chosen-to-expatriate-as-required-by-section-6039g
What the IRS says…
https://www.irs.gov/forms-pubs/about-form-8854
https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/report-of-foreign-bank-and-financial-accounts-fbar
You shouldn’t believe anything you read on the internet unless you can verify it independantly.
“You shouldn’t believe anything you read on the internet unless you can verify it independantly.”
Same holds for newspapers and TV news too.
Hi Everyone,
After some months, I thought I would update. I’ll give the details of all this once it’s totally complete, for the directory’s sake (noting there’s not many reports from my area)….but unfortunately I’m one of the ones still waiting. I got my appt. in May; it went smoothly enough, though she did say they’d had errors in the past (on their end) that had to be corrected, so she was very careful about her instructions to me – that said, one thing that I found worrisome is she didn’t seem to think relinquishment even EXISTED (I don’t even mean in the context of just me – I renounced – but I mean “period”, she flat-out acted as if it wasn’t even an option for anyone, anymore (fees or not). Anyway…she said (too optimistically, given my location) that it would be “two weeks to two months” for my CLN. Pleasantries were exchanged, appointment ended. After two months had passed without a single word, I emailed them and asked politely as to the status. They did respond, but only said they hoped it would be early August and that it was still being processed, basically. I emailed again a couple of weeks ago – this time, they didn’t reply at all….so now, as September ticks on, I’m not even sure what to think – it was straightforward, after all. I wanted to attribute it all to the chaos over there, but hearing that others got theirs so quickly, I’m equal parts angry, annoyed, and frustrated. I will email them again at the end of Sept, and if they ignore THAT, we’ll start calling, but a part of me feels like they don’t give a rat’s arse now, once I have renounced and have that receipt, why SHOULD they bother to help? Whatever, it’s not a place I plan to visit ever again (embassy OR the US), but all the same, it’s not helped me feel BETTER about this whole debacle. Anyway, that’s an update from my side, for now. Anyone with ideas on how I can get more info about my actual status, I’m all ears.
@Merrick,
You could e-mail the consulate one more time. But as they didn’t reply last time, you might want to skip that step and contact Washington now, mentioning that they didn’t reply.
The person to contact in Washington is the Bureau of Consular Affairs Division Chief for your Division at DoS’ Washington office. Several Brockers have done that when their CLN’s arrival was “overdue” and they found the Washington office helpful in getting CLNs, which fell through the cracks, issued quickly, some cases of which were due to consulates dropping the ball and/or ignoring communication from the person.
Division Chief contact info (phone and snail mail) is at the lower right hand corner of page OD-17* of the DoS telephone directory, under the heading “Office of American Citizens Services.” The Divisions are abbreviated there as NESCA Near East and South and Central Asia, EAP East Asia and Pacific, WHA Western Hemisphere, AF Africa, and EUR Europe.
*The directory is updated regularly, so the location on the page may shift over time.
The link to the DoS telephone directory is also available on the sidebar under “Important Information: Department of State Forms, Manuals, Contact Info.”
Hi all,
I received my social security update via postal mail in 2011. After that, I didn’t receive one.
After many attempts to understand why I’d received it for four years & then never again, I finally got my answer last week (yes, it took that long):
“Thank you for contacting the Social Security Administration.
We apologize for the delay in answering your inquiry. We regret any inconvenience this may have caused.
Until you actually apply for benefit payments, we do not keep your current address on record here at Social Security. Previously, when we mailed your automatic Social Security Statement to you, we used the latest address provided to us by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS). (As I had repeatedly stated, I have moved & I am no longer filing, sooooo…????).
If your address has changed in the meantime, IRS will update its record when you file your next return. (!!!!!!!!!!) If you want to change the address before then, you can download the change of address Form 8822 from the following IRS Internet Web page:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8822.pdf
to download the program if you do not already have it.
If you prefer, you can call the IRS toll-free telephone number at 1-800-829-3676 to ask for Form 8822.
If you live in Puerto Rico or the Virgin Islands, we got your address from your local tax authority. You should contact them to correct your address.
If you live outside the United States, the address that the IRS gives us is sometimes incomplete. We are working with the IRS to try to correct this problem.
If you receive Social Security benefits, have applied for benefits, or are entitled to Medicare, call 1-800-772-1213 to notify us of your new address.
If you are receiving benefits, you may be able to change your address online with Social Security by visiting
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/coa/
and answering a series of questions that have to match our records. You can also change your address on the Internet if you have established a permanent password.
Those residing outside the United States and/or those who have been assigned a representative payee, may not use the online service.
At your option, you can visit your local Social Security office to have your address changed on our records. You can obtain the location and other information about your local office by accessing the following Internet address:
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/locator/
Because a change of address for Supplemental Security Income (SSI) recipients often requires reevaluation of living arrangements, the change of address for those recipients cannot be completed online.
An SSI recipient must report any change in living arrangements by calling our toll-free number, 1-800-772-1213, or by visiting a local office within 10 days after the month the change occurs. If not, the recipient could end up receiving an incorrect payment and have to pay it back. Failure to report or filing false reports could result in a fine, imprisonment, or both. Also, the recipient needs to report his or her new address to Social Security so that he or she can continue to receive mail from Social Security when necessary.
If you are not currently entitled to Social Security, SSI, or Medicare benefits and do not have an application pending, take no action. Social Security only maintains address information on current beneficiaries and people who have applications for benefits pending. ”
So, if you don’t have a USA address, you cannot access your SS records online- as any mainlander can do! F*ck these f*ckers!!!
At least I have an answer after forever– they are *ssholes. Be sure to print & update that form if you ever hope to collect SS!
Grrrrrrr
@Jane
I am not sure of your situation, but I spent 3 years writing to social security (International dept in Philadelphia) to receive my full entitlement (after paying in for 30 years). I am now a NRA and they claimed I was only entitled to 6months of benefits/yr which was absolute nonsense as my country has a tax agreement with them.
I eventually contacted the American embassy in Frankfurt and a German employee in their social security section called Philadelphia on my behalf and sorted out my benefits in 24hrs. He called me personally to let me know I was correct.
Email the Embassy who deal with SS for your country and tell them your problem
https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf
Hello Heidi!
Thanks for that comment. I’m going to venture that within IB, there ought to be separate areas for things such as this.
While it isn’t specifically renunciation-related, it is directly an additional hardship placed on you as you renounce which you may not ever know about. Social security cannot help- you MUST go to IRS.
@pacifica777 – thank you so much for the information. We will definitely try that! I have mixed feelings about the Embassy because while everyone was perfectly polite and atmosphere was – while strict – not at all cold, I’ve found that contact with them has been kind of wishy-washy (even when I tried to initially get the appt…even that took a month of phone tag)…it’s not a busy one, I don’t think…in fact, that may well be the problem. Hopefully in the weeks ahead I’ll have a new, better update. Again, my thanks.
@Jane,
If you have paid in the requisite number of units, I believe it’s 40 quarters, ie 10 yrs. Then you are entitled to SS payments when you retire. The SS dept at your local US embassy will deal with address changes etc. I am not sure why you have to deal with the IRS?
heidi.
I HAVE paid the requisite units- that is not anything to do with what I wrote.
After you renounce, your last tax return is the last address until you tell them otherwise.
My post alerts people that if they move, after renouncing, the IRS will NOT have your address on file, as they take it from your last filed return.
Oh- if you are outside the mainland USA, you have NO ACCESS to your SS records which mainlanders do have. FUN!
More USA f*kkery.
@Jane
OK, I get what you are saying. Yes, I could not access my records.
When you are ready to claim, I do recommend dealing with the US Embassy in your country, they are much more efficient. The SS administration are there to pay OUT money are as such are not ‘driven’ in the same way the IRS are, whos job it is to collect!
“My post alerts people that if they move, after renouncing, the IRS will NOT have your address on file, as they take it from your last filed return.”
Good to know. Thanks.
I moved (within country) after renouncing. I called the IRS first thing in the morning US time to clear up a problem and gave them my new address. I was able to get an agent immediately who was efficient. The SS administration are another story, I suggest you use your local US embassy for any SS queries/ problems.