Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Bjorn
Well-that birthplace in your canadian passport is already a HUGE red flag.
And waiting until you have enough money is most likely the wrong way to go about it. Because right now, you don`t have as much to take. The pain should be minimal. Going into Streamlined makes it easier too. When you do have more money – then the U.S. will really TAKE. They will get all excited about it.
@Polly– Passports aren’t used to open bank accounts in Canada. Unless @bjorninusa1 intentionally swims into the net by self-identifying as an American, he’ll be fine.
@bjorninusa1 – Another example of American exceptionalism. FATCA defines all the banks outside of the US as Foreign Financial Institutions (FFIs), and the rest of the world starts calling the bank around the corner a “foreign” bank!
@Polly – if bjorn really has no money now and only salary income below FEIE, then there’s no need for Streamlined – no FBARs, PFICs, foreign trusts, etc means that the only possible penalty is failure to file, which currently is a percentage of tax due. Even if FEIE is denied due to non-filing, for someone in Canada I would expect FTC to cover the US liability on straight wage/salary income. So the risk of waiting until FBAR-reportable savings rises to US10k is minimal as long as US-toxic investments are avoided. If, as @BC Doc says, the bank doesn’t need to see his passport, bjorn can probably fly under the radar for quite some time.
bjorn should consider the advice given here https://www.facebook.com/groups/accidental.americans/permalink/335936186761478/
@bjorninusa1
I agree with Polly — the US birthplace is a dead giveaway, and the time to get out is when you have few assets. However, I’d recommend Karen’s approach to severing ties — at this point, you can just quietly back-file five years of tax returns and pay US$2350 to break free. In future, renouncing might be far more onerous and expensive (for example, the fee jumped from US$450 to US$2350 in 2014).
@BC Doc
A passport currently isn’t required to open a bank account in Canada, but I foresee a day not far in the future when we’ll need to submit biometric data to access any services that presently just require a SIN (or medical number).
@bjorninusa1
My situation is similar to yours: born in USA to a Canadian parent (father), came to Canada age 3 months, life in Canada, no US passport, no SSN etc. I have never thought of myself as a true American. By the time I was in my early twenties I knew that I always wanted to live in Canada.
When I realized that FATCA really did potentially affect me, it took me a number of months to figure out what to do (ex. wondering about renouncing, trying to get a CLN etc.) but in the end I followed my gut instinct to not comply. I was greatly helped by the many fine comments and efforts of contributors on Isaac Brock and Maple Sandbox. To me, it is crazy to try to get into the USA’s tax system just to try to get out with a CLN.
The idea of filing US tax returns & FBARS, along with the extortionate renunciation fee, is just so wrong. We owe the USA nothing – our income and savings are earned and taxed in Canada. As a Canadian living in Canada, I refuse to obey the USA’s unjust laws of FATCA and citizenship taxation. I do not accept that the USA has the right to impose birthright citizenship and then set unfair financial barriers to
renunciation if one does not wish to be a US citizen. The US government is simply trying to steal our money.
Here are a few comments for you to consider (the first two were posted on Isaac Brock and are from my recall, ie. likely not verbatim)
“For someone with a lifetime of savings and investments in Canada, entering the IRS madhouse is simply not an option” (Anne Frank)
“I will never go anywhere near a US consulate. I don’t trust them.” (Blaze)
“One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.
Mr A. Here’s a couple of other quotes.
Dan on IBS. “Don’t tell them anything they don’t already know.”
Hitchens. ” the beginning of emancipation is the ability to laugh at authority”
@bjorninusa1 they do not know who you or where you are. don’t paint a red bulls eye on your self and tell them who or where you are.
assuming you never have to travel to the us of a for work or family accept the fact that you may never set foot in that country again. but hey there is a whole other world of travel awaiting for you.
in future for your banking needs find a “local client base” credit union. they will not ask the dreaded place of birth question. find an investment advisor that does not care where you are born and lie to them when filling out the paperwork.
don’t do anything to bring your self to the attention of the bully to the south. there is estimated to be close to 1,000,000 canadian citizens effected by the bully to the south. are they really going to come and round all of us up and demand we all pay a tribute to a foreign county many that many of us have had nothing to do with for decades?
it all depends on your level of risk tollerance. only you can decide what that level is. in my case and only my case i accept that i may never be able to cross the border to the south again, i further refuse to pay the estimated $40-50,000 it would take for me to become tax compliant and then pay another $2,350 for the privledge of giving up something i have no use for.
you and only you can decide what is right for you but don’t be hasty read and then read some more and then read some more and then and only then make an informed decision as to what is best for you and your family.
@Mr. A
“One has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.”
― Martin Luther King Jr.
Right on. I filed all the IRS forms myself. Filled them out by hand in black ink with no assistance from a tax condor. Didn’t bother me at all not to tell the whole truth so long as the IRS couldn’t prove anything. When disobeying an unjust law, one is not obligated to “come clean” for those covered in filth themselves.
As Mettleman says, “it all depends on your level of risk tolerance. “
By instinct, I cheer the feisty sneer-and-duck approach to any truck with the exceptionalist U.S. tentacles that seek to suck away at extraterritorials. But instinct may not serve self-preservation for the long run.
Start with two already stated basic principles: (1) Future compliance so far has proved harder. Think renunciation fee going from $0 to $450 to $2350 over a span of only eight years. (2) Laxity in the territories beyond U.S. borders shows steady decrease. Think unbelievable measures now being taken to smoke out extraterritorials.
Youth who feel that time is long should consider this. People for whom time seems short are now having to take into account situations where they MUST deal with “professionals” – and no option not to. (Sale of house after long tenure. Settlement of estate after death.) Credo of those “professionals”? YOU need to cover MY ass. Protocols steadily rigidify.
Anyone who foresees a lifetime of subsistence without asset accumulation (a viable lilies-of-the-field birds-of-the-air contrarian option) can disregard the foregoing.
I can only go by what Bjorn has told us, and it seems to me that he is expecting to get or have more money in the future. THAT is the main reason to renounce now. Get yourself out of the system for good and by the book using Streamlined. Because once there is money there- that is when it will get painful.
All of this is assuming that things will get worse and not better. Personally, I have supported the law suit because it is just and right. But what I see is a rigged system, and my hope is waning. Even with one of the best constitutional lawyers in America, Bopp – we got the answer that the banks are to blame for the pain and not FATCA. ( In fact we keep getting this as an answer as seen in the letter the US ambassador to Switzerland sent to the swiss banks.) What I see for the future is that FATCA will remain and methods of detection will grow. Even Europe is getting in on the act. As long as America has CBT, the problem will not go away and from every US lawyer I have ever spoken to, even those who admit it is wrong, I hear America will NEVER give up CBT. (And especially not while it is in such debt.)
But in the end, Bjorn has to decide for himself. Maybe he should look up Streamlined in order to decide. Getting all fumed up over the injustice of all of this is not an answer. Of COURSE it is an abomination. Of course we are all incensed and afraid. Think of all the injustice in the world and all the dead bodies lying by the wayside because of it. But that is not a reason to not take the opportunity to get out of the nightmare while the chance is there for escape. In fact- it might even be a way for USA to really rethink the CBT law. What if there were no expats left? ( Sadly- that too will never happen as long as America is so powerful and such a magnet.)
My opinion is that one should not underestimate one`s opponent.
@bjorn,
I was in a similar situation, born in US to two Canadian parents, returned to Canada as an infant. I opted (during the early, confusing, fearful days) to renounce for $450, and file only the 8854 (exit tax form). With both the renunciation paperwork and the (partially completed) 8854, I included rather nasty, angry statements. I’m sure the consulate couldn’t get me out fast enough, I was angry, loud, and didn’t care who overheard.
I popped my head up over and over again in the Whack-a-mole game. I have been waiting for more than three years for some idiot in the US government to contact me, threaten me, chastise me. Nothing. Nada. Squat.
Were I faced with the situation now, knowing what I know, I would have done nothing. My tourist dollars go to other countries, I refuse to enter the US. My big red bank refused to make a record of my CLN, showing me my profile was Canadian only. Banks will not be requiring passports for accounts because not every Canadian has one. I highly doubt they will require birth certificates, unless it is for a child’s account, and there is no other ID available at that age.
At this point, I believe ignoring the US completely is a very valid option.
Even when disobeying an unjust law, it makes sense to cover oneself. If one has renounced/relinquished its only safe to withhold informing the IRS about assets if there is no chance of a paper/electronic trail, currently or possibly in the future. I suspect the US tax system will not get better anytime soon. One can’t be too careful.
I think this is only slightly off topic, but I have seen advice that, for various reasons including tax reasons, we should keep records of the dates and time etc when we have crossed the border to and from the US. Not having done this and wanting to know what the US CBP records show, I have tried to access the “view travel history” on the website at http://i94.cbp.dhs.gov using various browsers but it’s a dead-end on all. Data entry boxes are displayed without proper labels and they don’t all accept entries. I know this is about 194’s, which visitors from visa-waiver countries must apply for, but I did read elsewhere that Canadians may automatically get “virtual i94s” either at the border or via the advanced airline passenger lists, and sometimes even real i94s when on a cruise ship visiting the US. Can anyone get this website to work, or am I wasting my time? The website says if you had put in a FOI request for travel history, you should withdraw it now that the data is searchable online, suggesting that they find it easier to have the info online rather than dealing with Freedom of Information Requests. Does it work for you?
@fn0
I successfully checked my travel history within the last month or 2. I was using firefox.
I bookmarked the web page as:
https://i94.cbp.dhs.gov/I94/#/history-search
I just tried with chrome and the web page popped up and looks fine; dummy data I entered appeared fine.
I’ll also point out that chrome doesn’t like the site’s certificate.
Thanks for the comments. Wouldn’t you know that right after complaining that the CBP travel history website was not working, it worked for me. This after several days of failing using different browsers on Mac desktop. Windows laptop and iPad. The 5 year travel history for an NRA with a Cdn passport was very incomplete as it showed only 2 arrivals and 2 departures . One of these was for a flight connection through LAX northbound from Australia to Canada. The previous connection through LAX southbound from Canada to Australia was not recorded, and none of the land crossings were. Possibly because all land trips, and maybe even southbound via LAX, were done with NEXUS. Interesting but not very useful in the circumstances.
Regarding NEXUS, I learned from Canada Customs today that you can apply online for renewal up to 12 months ahead of expiry, otherwise it’s 3 months. The CBP’s GOES website allows you to amend documents but not delete them, which I believe means visiting a NEXUS enrollment centre is needed when changing from dual US-Canadian to single Canadian citizenship.
@Jane
Years ago I had a problem receiving SSA statements, this because at that time the IRS and SSA systems were not set up at all properly to deal with foreign addresses. Half my address was lost somewhere between these bureaucracies, and I rarely received the statements the SSA sent out, and then only after amazing detective work by Canada Post. Complaints were ignored.
I do have 2 thoughts about your difficulty in getting the SSA to change your address when not receiving benefits.
1. You might try completing form 7004 “Request for a Social Security Statement” found at https://www.ssa.gov/hlp/global/hlp-statement-7004-revi.htm — Mail it to the Wilkes Barre address with your new address on it; the form will accept foreign addresses, and there’s no charge.
2. Consider filing a 1040NR with all zeros if applicable. Your new address should be passed on to the SSA.
Once you start receiving benefits it is usually easier.
I found this Congressional Research report recently;
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services
(USCIS) Functions and Funding
William A. Kandel
Analyst in Immigration Policy
May 15, 2015
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/R44038.pdf
And I find it interesting that as far as I can see, the fees (contentious and exponentially increased) for renouncing and now for relinquishing are not mentioned at all, though the fee increases and history of other functions are. Nor does the report even acknowledge the processing of renunciations and relinquishments as UCIS functions.
Interesting and telling omission?
The source of the above CRS report (and others) was here;
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/
from this CRS report:
‘Year-End Cash Reserves Balance USCIS maintains a cash reserves balance—the accumulated excess of user fees collected over user fees expended. As of February 2015, this balance totalled $1.3 billion.46 USCIS asserts that because it operates similar to a commercial enterprise, it must maintain a cash reserve balance of at least $600 million annually for its fiscal protection.47’
—–
This report is dated May 2015, I wonder what the end of year balance actually is with all the renunciations/relinquishments? They aren’t even mentioned as a service of the USCIS (Citizenship & Immigration Service).
This link http://www.jurist.org/paperchase/2016/11/supreme-court-hears-arguments-on-citizenship-of-children-born-abroad-to-unmarried-parents.php ‘Supreme Court hears arguments on citizenship of children born abroad to unmarried parents’ was posted on the American Expats facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/groups/AmericanExpatriates/ . I post it here in case some want to follow the outcome.
Anyone want to LISTEN to Afroyim vs. Rusk, and read the transcript can listen to it here;
Afroyim v. Rusk
Oral Argument – February 20, 1967
Earl Warren
Number 456, Afroyim, Petitioner, versus Dean Rusk, the Secretary of State.
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1966/456
How cool is it to actually listen to?!
Looks like there are many other cases available to hear, along with the actual transcripts at the same site!
I couldn’t find anything there for Cook v. Tait, but found this critique of Justice McKenna;
“….McKenna served four terms in the House of Representatives, and later, as circuit judge and (briefly) as attorney general. In all these roles, he was devoted to Republican principles. This loyalty was surely the basis for his nomination to the High Court, for experience would confirm that it was not his ability that merited his elevation to the nation’s highest tribunal. In fact, two federal trial judges took the unusual step of publicly expressing their view that McKenna was unfit for the office based on his performance as an appellate judge.
McKenna may have acknowledged his lack of preparation when, after his confirmation, he studied law at Columbia Law School to prepare for the burdens he would face as a justice. There is doubt that the last-minute tutoring had any measurable improvement on his ability as a justice.”
https://www.oyez.org/justices/joseph_mckenna
Here is also the transcript and audio recording for;
Vance v. Terrazas
Docket no.
78-1143
Decided by
Burger Court (1975-1981)
Lower court
United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit
Citation
444 US 252 (1980)
https://www.oyez.org/cases/1979/78-1143
Just spoke with yet another Canadian of US descent who is planning to renounce asap due to the growing complexity of US extraterritorial tax laws, FBAR and FATCA. They had been totally US CBT compliant.
FYI, I renounced 7 September 2016 in Vancouver, and my Certificate of Loss of Nationality issued 8 November arrived 12 November. I think I’ll frame it. I may also frame the advance voting form for the 8 November election received earlier, but not completed before 7 September so not returnable.