Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Hi All.
Anyone know if it’s possible get a US apostille for their CLN?
My attorney helping me with a (small country) citizenship process claims all my docs need apostille including the cert of loss of nationality.
Many thanks.
@cinsoon, I would guess either the American embass/consulate in your country or a public notary.
A very detailed history of how US citizenship law has been discriminatory based on gender; ex. the US government forcibly stripped US citizen women of US citizenship merely for marrying a non-US person;
http://calvo.commons.gc.cuny.edu/2016/10/02/gender-wives-and-u-s-citizenship-status/
INTERNATIONAL REVIEW OF CONSTITUTIONALISM, Volume 9, 2010, Number 2.
Gender, Wives, and U.S. Citizenship Status: The Failure of Constitutional and Legislative Protection Janet M. Calvo[1]
And now, the US government is forcing those who started a life ‘abroad’ with a non-US spouse (see research by A. von Koppenfels into most common reasons for emigrating from the US https://www.kent.ac.uk/brussels/staff/profiles/brussels/koppenfels.html ) into renouncing in order to keep their financial and marriage life intact ( ex. http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2014/09/19/thank-you-fatca-youve-just-busted-my-marriage/ http://www.fawco.org/component/content/article?id=1786:fatca-and-overseas-americans-and-overseas-american-spouses ) and making even those aiming to remain ‘compliant’ extremely difficult to maintain ( ex. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/sep/24/americans-chased-by-irs-give-up-citizenship-after-being-forced-out-of-bank-accounts http://blogs.wsj.com/expat/2014/11/16/ask-an-expert-tax-tips-for-expats-with-alien-spouses/ )..
http://irelandmoveclub.com/forums/topic/renouncing-us-citizenship/
Renouncing US citizenship
Anyone want to comment there?
Badger, below are case examples of the marital harm of FATCA from Virginia’s article that you cited:
“Because banks now require for you to sign a form that allows them to put the account on escrow upon US request, my (non-American) wife forced me to place all of our joint accounts on her name alone.”
“My husband and I were forced to reorganize our finances totally. He opted not to give me joint ownership of our home, he closed our joint account. Even the bank was shocked when I explained that I was required to report 100% of the amount in the joint account which was created with his money. My future is less secure financially thanks to this.”
“My German ex refused to marry an American because of filing requirements. So we split up.”
“The FATCA has caused enormous friction in my marriage. My non-US spouse is refusing to let the US government know about his salary/earnings/savings (I am unemployed, a stay-at-home mother) and I therefore cannot fill out all the necessary paperwork. Moving to separate bank accounts would leave me very vulnerable as I have no income of my own and according to Belgian law would have no right to access my spouse’s accounts. It is very stressful to be so beholden to my husband as well not in compliance with my own government.”
“The tax filing is ridiculous. Causes annual arguments with my British husband and is expensive.”
“Family trusts will exclude me, and assets go straight to my children, putting me at risk were my marriage to end.”
“My husband refuses to share a main savings account with me now, which puts me at a disadvantage in the event that something should happen to me, as I would have no legal access to that account. It has put great stress on my marriage.”
http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2014/09/19/thank-you-fatca-youve-just-busted-my-marriage/
@Stephen, yet despite that and other ample evidence, apparently discord in marriage, and joint and familial financial harm is not a sufficient injury in the eyes of the US that it will recognize or admit or even agree to consider.
My discovery that the mere fact of my US birthplace was inseparable from the punitive and confiscatory US extraterritorial CBT/FBAR/FATCA regime with its associated costs and burdens certainly made my US citizenship fraught with nothing but pain and caused significant damage to the financial and personal wellbeing of my Canadian family such that I could see from the first day of my discovery of all this that for us, my formal expatriation was a necessity and the only remedy I could see. At one point I wondered if I would have to divorce in order to sufficiently quarantine and contain my US taint and all that it brought with it. I was just lucky that at the time I didn’t also have to pay 2350. US for my CLN freedom papers on top of the other injuries.
Even now I don’t know if or when any Canadian FI we deal with will demand to see my CLN, or if we travel together as a Canadian family whether we all will be delayed because of me alone – to produce my CLN in order to prove I am no longer a US citizen because of the US birthplace on my Canadian passport. The harm isn’t just to myself, but to my Canadian spouse and family. Apparently that level of harm to US citizens and their families means less than nothing to the US government.
I just thank the randomness of the universe that I was not American enough (insufficient years of US residency) to pass on the burden to any children.
Hello and thanks in advance for any advice.
I just recently discovered the potential issues my dual citizenship could have on my investment/retirement plans and am currently unsure on where or how to proceed. I was born in 1979 to an American Father and Canadian Mother in the US. We relocated back to Canada when I was 2 or 3 years old and where I have lived my entire life since. When I was a baby I had a US passport, I’ve never had a SSN and never lived in the US or worked there. I have also never filed US taxes or been aware I was supposed to.
I would now like to begin planning for retirement and starting with some investments and would like to ensure that my future and the future of my family is secure. I am hesitant to start investments in my name should they become penalized and flagged in the US. I am unsure what information my bank has on my birthplace or citizenship in regards to my joint bank account I hold with my Canadian wife and I am afraid to ask them for fear it will flag my account for FBAR compliance.
I am skeptical on advice from people who specialize and earn their paycheque by helping people renounce/relinquish their US citizenship, or similarly, accountants who file US taxes for people. Beyond that however I am at a complete loss as to where to go for advice on what I should and can do and then what the ramifications of my choices are.
Also, I don’t believe that my children are affected by this. They were all born in Canada to me and my Canadian wife and never registered in the US.
Any advice on where to go, who to seek advice from (I live on Vancouver Island in BC) ?
@bjorninusa1
Welcome. Investments for duals are a thorny issue. This highlights the injustice of FATCA. You can have bank accounts at a credit union which is registered as Local Client Base for FATCA exempt purposes. They will not report as long as you are a resident of Canada. Vancity was a safe haven for me prior to renouncing and I continue to keep my accounts there. But as far as investing, even at an affiliated investment company, my understanding is that they will always ask FATCA related questions and report if you are determined to be a “US Person.”
I hope someone else with more experience on this issue can help. I suppose one could lie about birthplace but you need to have the risk tolerance for that.
@bjorn, start by reading the 12 Petros Principles: https://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/08/05/petros-principle-12-who-is-criminal/
@ bjorninusa1
Welcome to Brock! I can doubly reassure you that your children are indeed safe from US citizenship. I’ll just say you are in the same boat as the 3 plaintiffs (Ginny, Gwen and Kazia) in the ADCS lawsuit and let others with more know-how address your other concerns.
Welcome @ bjorninusa1
This is a thorny issue – and one that angers me more the more I think about it. US residents who have their bank interest income reported to the IRS are notified of this on form 1099. Why don’t expats whose accounts are FATCA’d deserve the same right of notification. If you search the archive you’ll find that bubblebustin went through a huge ordeal to find out what her bank had reported to the CRA/IRS. This is not right. Each country should amend their FATCA IGA enabling legislation to require notification (well, actually they should repeal the IGA enabling legislation, but that’s not going to happen).
I, too, did not want to ask my bank whether they knew I was a US citizen, so in early 2014 I moved my money to a credit union (I’m in Australia, so bank names won’t help you).
If you haven’t already seen it, this page is a good place to start learning about your options: https://isaacbrocksociety.ca/introductory-material-on-fatca-info-session-synopsis-history-of-isaac-brock-society/
bjorn: welcome. You will get advice-probably lots- and some conflicting. To start with the easy one. Your kids are safe so long as you don’t register them.
Now ,the harder one. First, you can do nothing. This is the option many of us have taken. It has a great deal to offer.. You might want to change banks. If you open an investment or other account you might not want to be completely truthful about your other citizenship.
Second, you could renounce. This takes about a year and costs $3000. A friend applied for an appointment 2 months ago and has heard bupkus.
If you were to renounce, you would be told that you needed to ‘contact’ the IRS.
This means you are supposed to file 5 years of US tax returns in order to avoid being a so called covered expatriate. A good accountant would cost 5-10K..
It is possible to renounce and not file. There are pros and cons which have been discussed at length. Read Petros’ principles. Don’t rush and don’t panic. Take your time. The best course of action is unique to each person. Ask any further questions you might have.
Bjorn, if you have not lived in the US for at least 5 years, 2 of which were after your 14th birthday, then your kids are not US citizens. If they have US grandparents then they could apply to become US citizens by descent. Once they are adults they can make that decision for themselves.
Hi, Bjorn.
Re: “I am unsure what information my bank has on my birthplace or citizenship in regards to my joint bank account….”
You can find out exactly what personal information any bank you currently have an account at has on you very easily. Here’s how to do that without arousing suspicion.
The personal information a bank has on you is in what the banks call your AML-KYC file. AML-KYC stands for Anti Money Laundering – Know Your Client.
AML-KYC is the government-mandated information banks must collect about all clients who hold accounts or have been granted signing authority, so it is consistently kept at all banks.
Simply go into your home branch(es) and ask them for a copy of your AML-KYC file. To avoid them suspecting that you only want to find out what they have about birthplace/citizenship, if they ask why you want the file, you tell them the reason you want to see your AML-KYC file is to make sure that ALL the personal information in it is correct.
What banks have on record about your birthplace/citizenship will be found amidst a whole variety of pieces of personal information about you in that file, most of which have nothing to do with citizenship. But you’ll get your answer about what they have on you.
@bjorninusa1, you have a very simple solution. Renounce the US citizenship and then carry on with your life. As you have no SSN, you’re not in the US’s tax system and they have no way to match you to the copy of the CLN that they’ll get from the State Department when you renounce. So don’t bother with doing anything about the supposed tax you owe the US. Renounce to get your CLN as official proof, put it in a safe place and then forget about any American connection you might have had. You’re Canadian, you live as a Canadian and that is all you are.
Your bank is unlikely to have any info on your American taint, if they did they would have chased you by now to sign a W-9 form.
Another option is to keep the citizenship, apply for that SSN and then file back years either using Streamlined or simply sending in the forms. After that, keep filing each year. Getting an SSN is a hassle and would involve a trip to the US for a face to face meeting iirc.
Third option is to get a SSN, then renounce and do the back filing necessary to allow you to file the 8854 form to exit the US tax system cleanly. This could take some years as getting the SSN and then filing could stretch over 2-3 years, depending on how quickly SSN’s get issued. I’ve read that they’re pretty slow.
The main thing as dod says is not to rush into any decision, but to research your options before making the decision you feel most comfortable with. Some people will do the first option and be fine with it, others may feel they’d worry for the rest of their lives that somehow they’re going to be found out regardless so prefer to take the second option of keeping the citizenship and filing. Others opt for the third as giving them peace of mind. Only you can decision which of many options is the right one for you.
What support and answers we can give you we will so if you have more questions and/or rants/comments then feel free to voice them.
To clarify… the AML-KYC files referred to above are what banks in Canada keep. I don’t know what they are called in other countries.
But in a FATCA world, everybody checking their AML-KYC file occasionally is a good idea. It’s just like checking your credit rating.
And I’ve even observed firsthand one “Big 5” Canadian bank that opens new accounts for longstanding clients based solely on the citizenship information they have on file. In that instance, they didn’t ask the citizenship/birthplace question, but simply copied forward to the new additional account file the citizenship and other personal information that was listed in the old AML-KYC file!
In other words, in that instance, the [hidden U.S.] client opening an additional account had no need either to lie or to walk out.
A CLN has your full name, your date of birth, your place of birth (town/city, province/county, state/county), and your current address.
This is enough for the IRS to determine (should it be so diligent, which so far it has not AFAWCT) if the CLN recipient is apparently non-compliant and deserving of a letter. Whether the IRS would have the means to follow up in a meaningful way is another question (in many/most cases it doesn’t), but for some people, just receiving such a letter would be very upsetting. And, FWIW, a current day renunciant is supposed to file form 8854 and not filing it amounts to a $10,000 penalty. So you either tell the IRS if you’re non-compliant in 8854 or you get a $10,000 penalty (at least in theory).
There is also a *possibility* (stress on the word ‘possibility’) that non-compliant CLN recipients could one day find their info in a database that could be used to match, for example, folks entering the US for a visit or plane transfer (assuming passport name is CLN name).
I’m not trying to be alarmist, but one should not assume that the current situation will be the same in the years going forward. So IMO it’s best to consider what *could* happen even if just to conclude the likelihood is minute and you’re willing to deal with the worst should it happen to arise despite the odds.
Thanks everyone for your input. My biggest fear in this whole mess is the impact it could have on our joint bank account should we inherit money or gain investments in the future and it gets reported. Its also my understanding that they can do little to force me to comply unless I enter the US after they have become aware of my non-compliance. I am guessing that should this be the case I would have some prior knowledge that I am “flagged”.
Assuming the IRS, through information gained from FATCA decided that I owe them something, what do they or have they done? What notifications are sent?
Thanks for the information about the AML-KYC file, I don’t think they have my birthplace on file but I’d like to double check. It was an account of my wife’s prior to us marrying and she added me onto the account and turned it into a joint account in 2002/2003. I think this is prior to them requesting birthplace information. When I opened an investment account with the same bank they similarly didn’t ask me and just used the same information on file. Knowing what that information is would ease my mind and make me more confident in not complying.
Several points. They are supposed to not ask place of birth. They can ask citizenship.
Why have a joint account? It’s easy to have separate accounts.
So far, we are not aware of anything they might or might not have done to minnows living in Canada. They are strapped for resources.
If your bank doesn’t know your citizenship, there is no chance of being Fatcad.
I chose to expatriate because staying a US citizen was too complicated for me and my alien family members to deal with, even though I have ever owed any tax to the US. I chose to expatriate this year because doing it now avoids the possibility of becoming a covered expatriate later. Delaying would introduce too many worries e.g. a dropping US$, increasing house values, future changes to the exit tax rules, ongoing filing complexities, avoiding TFSAs etc. If you have fears about what happens if you inherit significant money or gain investments in the future, or try to open a new bank or investment account, then to avoid these hanging over your head you might want to think about renouncing, especially if your financial situation is relatively straightforward. On the other hand, If the cure of renunciation, or compliance and renunciation, is worse than the disease of uncertainty then doing nothing is always an option. No one seems to have much of a handle on what the IRS is actually doing if anything about the US persons abroad who are ignoring them. I am guessing the way it works now they only react if US persons are reported to them for something, or they become aware of a high profile person e.g. Boris Johnson. Reporting could happen if a known “US person” resident in Vancouver or Toronto sells a a principal residence for a lot more than they bought it for years ago. It would not surprise me if they were reported to the IRS, since a whistleblower could get a reward from the IRS based on a portion of the extra tax collected, or could just want to get someone into trouble. This could be a sideline for unscrupulous realtors. One consideration in all of this is could be whether or not you are ever going to take trips into the US. If not, then it’s worth noting that the CRA has said it will not collect anything on behalf of the IRS from Canadian citizens.
My point bears repeating. We have not heard of anyone getting any kind of notice or demand from IRS as a result of FATCA. No-one.
All problems so far have been a result of the fish voluntarily jumping into the net.
@bjorninusa1, yes covered expatriate status is another thing to consider in your deliberations before you make a decision. If you don’t file returns and eventually the 8854 form to exit the system cleanly then you will be a covered expatriate. What that could mean for you may be fines, possible arrest and even permanent ban on ever entering the US again. The arrest could only be if you do enter the US and obviously would depend on what fines, if any, have been issued. The permanent ban comes under the Reed Amendment which, so far, no one has found a way to implement. But if you don’t plan to enter the US (or fly over it – emergency landings come to mind) then frankly it doesn’t matter. They can’t come after you in Canada.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expatriation-tax
http://hodgen.com/chapter-4-are-you-a-covered-expatriate/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Amendment_(immigration)
Note that your dual birth status does not let you off having to file the 8854 form. If you don’t do that you’ll still be a covered expat.
bjorn. It must be Halloween. Medea is out to frighten you with no evidence- none.
Fines! Possible arrest! Emergency landings! Permanent ban! Give me a break.
DOD
Halloween or not, Medea would be derelict in her calling as a Brocker if she disregarded informing new Brockers of the implications of US Gov directives. Let them make their own decisions with the full info.
Knowledge is power.
What US gov. directives?