Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@ fn0
One of our Brockers renounced in Mexico — krackerjack121 (Rocky Martin). Here’s an article about him. He got his appointment done just before the fee increase. Maybe pacifica777 or someone else can recall when he got his CLN … seems to me it was slow coming.
http://globalnews.ca/news/1671945/meet-the-alberta-man-who-went-to-tijuana-to-renounce-his-u-s-citizenship/
@fn0
“What I would like to know is how you found out the consulate was booked out for weeks and how you were able to make an appointment elsewhere.”
The procedure changed recently. It used to be that you could separately email the seven consulates that do the appointments (though many of them never bothered replying as soon as they saw the request was from someone outside their area) and, if you were lucky, you were offered an appointment. I always made it clear that I was available on short notice in case they had a cancellation (and that’s how I got my appointment without having to wait upwards of six months, which was the earliest appointment I had been offered by the handful of consulates that actually responded to my appointment request).
“But the only relevant option on Tijuana’s appointment system is “Notary and other”, we don’t know if “other” includes renunciation, their calendar shows only two open days in June 2016 and none at all in July or any later months. ”
It won’t include renunciations, but you should still go ahead an book the appointment anyway because a real person will contact you to let you know that that’s not how to do it.
Thanks Westcoaster for the information. When you suggest going ahead and booking an appointment anyway, are you thinking of something besides sending the forms and docs to
CanadaCLNAppointments@state.gov and then waiting weeks to hear back with an appointment time that’s sometime in 2016 or 2017? (If its not till 2017, the struggle with the post-renunciation paperwork will be in 2018, aargh)
I am thinking about sending an additional email to CanadaCLNAppointments@state.gov to let them know I am close to an Embassy and could come in at short notice in case of a cancellation. If I do, it might be better to do so after the first emailed appointment request has been processed rather than before, to reduce the risk of causing more delay.
With regard to going ahead and booking an appointment on the system to have a real person contact you, because of the instruction “Individuals desiring to renounce or relinquish their U.S. Citizenship should NOT make an appointment through this system”, I would be concerned that this might generate annoyance and cause more problems than it solves.
Does any of this make sense?
@fno
I renounced in 2011. At the time you could go “consulate shopping”. Oh- they are nasty in Stockholm and London, Paris asks for 2 meetings, so lets try Bratislava. Why shouldn’t one be able to do that now too? How did we find out the consulate was booked? Because you only got an appointment next December and it was February.
@fn0
“When you suggest going ahead and booking an appointment anyway, are you thinking of something besides sending the forms and docs to CanadaCLNAppointments@state.gov and then waiting weeks to hear back with an appointment time that’s sometime in 2016 or 2017?”
You’ve already applied to CanadaCLNAppointments@state.gov so that’s your plan A. In your shoes, I’d also have a plan B in the form of booking a “Notary and other” appointment via Tijuana’s appointment system. Doing that won’t glitch anything up, because none of the consulates seem to share the same booking system (I’m saying this based on my experience dealing with the Canadian consulates, so I very much doubt that they share data with their Mexican counterparts). What will likely happen is someone at the Tijuana office will see the appointment and realize it was booked in error, so they’ll contact you to let you know that “and other” does not include renunciations and that your appointment has been cancelled as a result, giving you an email to reply to with a direct request for a Loss of Nationality appointment.
If Tijuana offers you an earlier appointment than your local consulate, accept it IN ADDITION to whatever your local consulate offers you. Once you go to the Tijuana appointment, cancel your Canadian appointment. (The reason I suggest keeping the latter until you’ve actually been to the former is in case it gets postponed. There’s usually only one person at each consulate that does renunciations, so if the Tijuana person gets sick, your appointment might get significantly delayed depending on how busy they are.)
“I am thinking about sending an additional email to CanadaCLNAppointments@state.gov to let them know I am close to an Embassy and could come in at short notice in case of a cancellation. If I do, it might be better to do so after the first emailed appointment request has been processed rather than before, to reduce the risk of causing more delay. ”
No, I wouldn’t send an additional email. Instead, wait until you’re offered an appointment. At that point, you’ll be asked to confirm that you accept the slot so that would be the ideal time to mention you’d like to be placed on the cancellation list.
Good luck!
@fn0
Sorry, forgot to address your last point.
“With regard to going ahead and booking an appointment on the system to have a real person contact you, because of the instruction “Individuals desiring to renounce or relinquish their U.S. Citizenship should NOT make an appointment through this system”, I would be concerned that this might generate annoyance and cause more problems than it solves.”
My first suggestion is to thoroughly check the Tijuana website to see if there’s an email address you can use, instead of the online booking system. If there isn’t, then you really have no other option but to pretend you didn’t see the disclaimer and book a “Notary and other” appointment online. (Which I’m sure has happened before and will happen again, if they don’t add instructions on how to book a renunciation appointment without going through the online system. Worse comes to worst, they think you’re an idiot and you redeem yourself by apologizing sincerely.)
@fn0
https://mx.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/renunciation/
Good news, you don’t have to use the online booking system to contact the Mexican consulate. The above link provides instructions: To schedule an appointment for the initial interview, applicants should send an email to MexicoCityPassport@state.gov
Dana said: ” I understand that as a covered expat, I will bear more tax consequences. However, must I also bear worse immigration treatment? Seems counterintuitive that by giving more financial support to them, I should be treated more harshly in terms of visa priveleges.”
Although former citizens shouldn’t have problems visiting the U.S., it does sometimes happen, according to reports posted on this website and elsewhere. In all the reports I’ve seen, it’s been down to an over-zealous and undertrained border guard who is clearly in the wrong but unfortunately will not or cannot understand that s/he is in the wrong.
In most of the reports I’ve seen, the border guard sees that the former citizen was born in the U.S., and won’t let the former citizen enter on a non-U.S. passport. This is why you need to carry the CLN, to prove you’re not a citizen and therefore are legally entitled to enter the U.S. on a non-U.S. passport.
If I were visiting America, I would:
a) carry CLN;
b) choose a high-traffic, non-land-border entry point where the personnel may be more experienced and better trained.
With regard to covered expatriate status: unless your financial status is such that you know beyond doubt that covered expatriate status is unavoidable, it’s worth spending some time researching the (obscure, inconsistent, and limited) guidance on how to complete Form 8854. Especially Schedule A.
Just to add a useful guide to renunciation and the exit tax.
http://www.renunciationguide.com/expatriation-and-tax-details-of-current-law/exit-tax-on-renunciants/
The figures may be out of date but I believe the principles still stand.
Also look at Phil Hodgens blog on this site, he has some useful info re exit tax mitigation.
There is another nasty sting for any US beneficiaries of an estate of a covered expat. They will have to pay 40% of the estate to the IRS, after the estate country gets its share. That’s why any US kids of covered expats should consider expatriation.
Out of curiosity – can anyone here tell me what happens after the renunciation and final paperwork is complete? I renounced in Calgary in October 2015, got my CLN a few months later, and had my accountant send in the final filing forms this month. Can I expect any acknowledgement or do all these years of anxiety, gobs of money in accounting fees, reams of paperwork and shortened life span due to stress end up in an abyss somewhere, never to be heard from again?
As far as I have understood it,as long as they don’t dispute the accuracy of your filings, you get nothing, unlike in Canada where you receive your Peacheykeen assessment confirmation.
Congrats Peacheykeen.
With the IRS, no news is good news. I never heard a word from them after filing my final 1040’s and form 8854. Although they were sent with signature required so this would serve as a record. Keep copies of the forms you sent as well as your original CLN.
The Canadian system is preferable, as Canadian Ginny has mentioned the assessment confirmation from CRA.
Never hearing a word, considering the cost of filing to comply whether you owe a penny on not is so obnoxious! I would be livid. I am livid actually. What is this process? One way compulsory communication?
What an effective way to trap people.
Five years of living in that country was more than I ever wanted. I cannot make any sense of their processes. I don’t know how any of you deal with it.
@Peacheykeen, re;
“Can I expect any acknowledgement or do all these years of anxiety, gobs of money in accounting fees, reams of paperwork and shortened life span due to stress end up in an abyss somewhere, never to be heard from again?”
No acknowledgement will be forthcoming.
With them, no news is good news.
well wants the point of really renouncing .. or being compliant ..or staying compliant? if you could care less about ever going back?
i mean really this dropping 3-500 a year in accounting fee just to show you owe squat is beyond insane and extortion..
if you hold canadian citzenship or another whats the darn point ?
as im guessing from reading on the nice ladys in the lawsuit are not and never will be compliant from what i have gatherd so is that approach the way to go
Re: never hearing a word
After after all the returns have been filed with the IRS, you can request a tax return transcript. The IRS says they are generally available 6 weeks after filing but I imagine it could often be longer. The transcript contains most of the information on the return plus information from forms and schedules. You can get them for the current year and three previous. i did this because I wanted to have some proof that the IRS had received the filings and the data they contained. The transcript does not absolutely prove they are happy about what you filed, but it does prove they received it and processed it, supporting the assumption it was OK (or else they would have got back to you).
See https://www.irs.gov/individuals/get-transcript for more information.
Well @ Reggie, I may agree with you that it could be called extortion or worse, but at no time would Gwen or I advocate being compliant or not for anyone else. Each person’s situation may vary and it is a personal choice as to how to handle it. This is just our own decision and what we can live with.
The day that I will ever contemplate complying is the same day that Calgary 411’s son is entitled to comply. The fact that the USG denies him that right is sufficient for me to stay to support him and others in this situation. We all have the same rights and freedoms ( in Canada) or none of us does.
Re: if you couldn’t care less about going back .. what’s the point of renouncing ..
It is so unfair that the US should seek to impose taxes and penalties on non-resident “US persons” whose lives are outside the USA and whose wealth was earned totally outside the US.
The approach of not renouncing is possible, but only if potential difficulties with banks and travel are not going to arise. For example if your birthplace was in the USA, banks and financial institutions may not be able ignore the fact you are a “US person” and will restrict your ability to use some or all of their services. Even if you have no desire to ever go back to the USA, and never want to take a vacation in Hawaii or see the Grand Canyon, it may not be practical or possible to avoid the USA on some trips. Examples:
a) when trips between certain countries require a change at an airport in the USA
b) there could be an unscheduled stop in the USA en-route.
b) even domestic flights between certain Canadian cities flights that do not stop in the US may be in US airspace for part of the flight (e.g some Canadian domestic flights), and the airline must submit passenger lists to the US for approval.
An ex-airline employee just told me about his experience with a direct non-stop flight from Europe to Cuba, which crossed US airspace. Because the passenger list which had to be sent to the US included someone with had the wrong name, the plane was forced to stop in Halifax Nova Scotia to let the passenger off before entering US airspace.
I don’t have statistics about non-compliant US persons living outside the US and what the chances are of them encountering serious problems, but it is clear that as time goes by it is getting harder and harder to stay off the IRS radar.
A long-time ago David Ingram, sadly now deceased, told us he saw his first $10,000 IRS penalty in 1995 and it was levied against a 105 year old woman with $38,000 in the Royal Bank of Canada in North Vancouver BC. The penalty wasn’t for avoiding or owing tax, but was for not filing a TDF90.22 (since replaced by FIN-CEN) with her US return. Since then hundreds, probably thousands, more have been fined. If you are on the IRS radar and are doing your best to be compliant, you live under constant threat of making an inadvertent mistake and being subject to this type of totally unfair treatment. A significant reason to renounce.
Thanks for the information about the tax return transcript, fn0. I may check it out if the suspense gets to be too much. Then again, I might just decide this was all a bad dream and move on with my life.
@Peacheykeen, the second option is definitely the best one.
@all
Again many, many thanks for generously sharing your wisdoms and making this process more bearable.
@fn0
I posted this in the Consulate Report Directory, but thought that you may not have seen it. If your interested I can tell you more about my experience heading to Mexico to renounce.
The email address that I have to the consulate at Tijuana is tijuanacitizenship@state.gov. This is the email address that I have used to communicate with them about my expatriation and my CLN.
Cheers,
Rocky
Moderators, if fn) would like my email address you can give it too him, as you have done in the past for others.
Cheers,
Rocky
Thanks for offering info about going to Mexico. Today, the 28th of June, I am feeling more relaxed and no longer looking into having to go that far because an email came from CanadaCLNAppointments@state.gov giving me an appointment in September in Vancouver. This is 35 minutes away from home by public transit. The email responds to my 2 June email requesting an appointment and sending them completed forms and pictures of my documents. The September appointment is earlier than I had pessimistically expected, but, like the radio station says about the waits at the border, times are varying. Mixed emotions about this as my wife and I have thought about living in Washington State, but we surely know that will never happen for a whole number of reasons, including but not limited to the cost of health insurance for 70+ people who won’t qualify for Medicare for years.
fn0,
No problem. If you ever have any questions about it I am always willing to share me experiences.
Cheers,
Rocky