Read These if Relinquishing Act Performed Prior to June 4, 2004
Very important for pre-2004 relinqishers to read, the posts/threads at this link also contain some useful information for those who relinquished after June 4, 2004, or are planning to do so.
Pre-1995 Relinquishers and the IRS: Three Recent Legal Opinions (may also be relevant if you performed your relinquishment act between 1995 and 2004)
Michael Miller Paper on the Exit Tax: Applies Prospectively
Attn: Former US Citizens: Are you still or have you ever been a US tax citizen?
If Your Expatriation Date is Before 2004
Did You Relinquish Before February 6, 1995? (may also be relevant if you performed your relinquishing act between 1995 and 2004)
Renunciation and Relinquishment: Is there a Difference? What are the Differences?
@ Mr A
Did read it and that’s what prompted my question. I will report after my appointment in June. I was feeling good about this before, but now I’m getting worried again.
It’s crazy that none of this is clear. So much can be affected by your decision and most of us are doing this fairly blind. We have some information, but then you hear discrepancies between how things are treated in the different consulates and now even within a consulate.
@Kathy
The recent negative reports about the Toronto Consulate are troubling. We are supposed to be able to go to any Consulate, regardless of where we live. The Halifax Consulate seems to get good reports. Ottawa has apparently improved. I agree that it’s hard to know where one’s best chances are.
@MuyLinda, that leaves you in an interesting predicament. you could;
1.) Do nothing, take the stand you are not a US Person and consider yourself relinquished.
2.) Move forward and renounce.
I have been thinking about another interesting avenue that you may wish to test.
You have a US expired passport. You could apply to renew it. One page 1, line out “I am a citizen of the USA.” the n when it asks for the supplemental statement, provide a statement that you took an Oath for the purpose of relinquishing your nationality.
What will that force them to do? It will force them to either issue you a CLN or issue a US Passport to a person who states they relinquished US Citizenship.
What would State prefer to do? Issue a CLN to someone that wants it or issue a US Passport to someone who states they relinquished. I think they would prefer to issue a CLN rather than a Passport.
Hi there,
Sadly, I am writing after an unsuccessful bid for a CLN at the US embassy in Toronto last Thursday. I had booked the appointment using the online booking system. Seeing no way to book it any other way I selected the button for, “notary or other consular services.” Please don’t make this same mistake! I drove 4 hours each way only to be turned away because I made, in their words, “a mistake.” Given there were at least two others there arguing to be heard and being turned away for the same reason, I thought I should post this warning. Don’t waste your time and money making fruitless trips. In order to get the coveted appointments you must email the embassy and they will send you convoluted instructions that may or may not apply to you. For example, though I clearly stated I would like formalize an earlier relinquishment they sent me all the info on renouncing, something I have no intention of doing. I think I will try my luck at the Ottawa or Montreal embassy next time. Toronto’s next appointment are in April, 2015 now!
@Silver Birch
So very sorry to hear of your disappointing experience. The Toronto consulate changed their procedure some time ago and it has been posted at various times here on Brock (and also MapleSandbox). It seems odd that given your circumstances, they could not accommodate your request. I do hope the other consulates are able to be more efficient. Thanks for appraising us that Toronto is backed up until April 2015.
All best wishes and please do keep us informed of how things are going. There are people here who have been to Ottawa and Montreal and may be able to confirm what you are being told etc, to try and insure this does’t happen again,
@Silver birch,
It is indeed troubling that the US Consulate / Embassy sites (Canadian at least) do not make it obvious the procedure to renounce. There is quite a bit of deliberate obfuscation on their part as I look at it. You (and others) *think* / *thought* you had followed to correct procedure and spent needless time, energy and money for travel and, often, accommodation at the city in which they must expatriate. They COULD, IF THEY SO CHOSE, make those details very clear!
Does anyone out there know if one can argue that one worked for a foreign government if one worked in the health care sector? I heard that someone who worked for Manitoba health was able to use that as her expatriating act. Also, is it not possible to argue that, as a dual at birth, at a time that dual was not allowed (1968) that Canadian was chosen over US, thank you very much! Prior to 2004 one wasn’t required to document expatriating acts.
@Silver Birch
Regardless of the US laws at the time, the only successful past relinquishment claims by a born dual-citizens that I am aware of have been for government employment (including at least one in the health care sector). We believe that municipal, provincial and federal levels are all valid, but I haven’t seen a claim at the municipal level receive a verdict one way or another from Washington DC yet. The only other possibilities are military service (CO or NCO), military hostile action against the US, and treason.
Don’t let anybody tell you that government employment required an oath to be expatriating. You were already a Canadian citizen so an oath is not required. Also, don’t let anybody tell you that a high-level policy-making position was required. This is clearly not true.
There were other expatriating acts prior to October 1978, but it’s not a sure thing to try to argue those (such as voting in Canada and INA 350, which was simply living in Canada until you turned 25 without taking action to retain your USC).
@WhatAmI
Thanks. It is my intention to argue for a backdated CLN based on work in the health care sector dating back to the late nineties. I feel it is very arbitrary and unfair that some may be able to relinquish while others with very similar situations are only allowed to renounce. It also feels a bit like it depends more on the mood of the consular official than on actual facts. When the only tie you have is birth in the US and a few months living in the country almost half a century ago, you should just be allowed to relinquish!
@Silver Birch
Exactly. Your last statement is what INA 350 provided for. It was a mistake to delete that. They should have made it up to the citizen. If you turned 25 before Oct 10, 1979 you could try to argue INA 350. The FAM instructs consuls to forward such requests to DC but it’s not clear if they will be approved. There have been 2 people show up here who were in a position to try, but I don’t know if they did. I can only guess, but maybe the government employment has a better change of success since others here have done it successfully.
Of course, to claim you relinquished when you took the job you would have had to know that you were a US citizen at the time, and that you knew that you would be relinquishing by taking the job at the time, and you did it all voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing your USC at the time. Good thing all of that applies to your case.
@Brockers, I think there is going to be a surge in people taking ANY government job in order to document a relinquishment.
Where I live there are quite a few part time federal jobs that you can get, some may even take the job collect a paycheck then off to the Consulate.
@WhatAmI
Unfortunately I can’t call upon that rule as I was only 11 in 1979. But I definitely agree that was a clause that should not have been deleted. It would have eliminated a truckload of grief this side of the border.
@Silvee Birch
Ironically, one of those organizations, maybe American Citizens Abroad, lobbied hard to get INA 350 repealed. The US was stripping citizenship from children growing up overseas.
Along with his consulate report, François sent me the following regarding long-ago relinquishers, ss. 877/877A and the IRS’ document “Expatriation Tax.” He found Brock very helpful as he prepared for his CLN application, and he’d like to share his research/analysis on this matter.
Thanks François! And congratulations on your CLN!
He writes:
Finally!!!! Last year I went to the US Consulate in Toronto to make it official that I relinquished my US citizenship back in 1993 when I became a Canandian citizen…I went to ther website and made an appointment online in advance and yes it was kind of “not out there” about an appointment to relinquish, but I got an appointment. When I finally went there they told me had had to make an appointment with a Counciler and needed to return. After discussing that I had to drive 2hrs to get there they let me proceed without seeing one. I had all by paperwork ready and filled out, and they began the process. While I was there I met a lovely women who was there to renounce. Of course she had to provide all her financial documents etc. and file tax returns which costed her dearly but all in all she was glad that the process was going to be done and over with soon. Long story short…..1 yr later I got my CLN in the mail and its official!!!! Just to finish up, if you received your Canandian Citizenship prior to 1994 (I believe is the date), and never obtained a US passport or owned any property in the US or have done anything that has any ties to the U.S. other than travel there, you can take an easier and less expensive route to make your CLN official. That is to “relinquish” not renounce…..I had some help filling out the forms which I gave a “donation” for the advice and it was well worth it….!!! I am now and forever as always a true Canadian Citizen no questions asked!!!
HELP !!! I am a 77 year old man ,retired for the last 6 years. I was born in the US when my diplomatic father
was assigned to a Consulate. I left as an Infant and have never lived ,worked had accounts etc.in the US.None in my family,nor my parents are or were US citizens, Up to 26 years of age I travelled with a non US Passport. At that age I had to travel to the US and requested a VISA.At the US consulate I was told that my father had not been credited as a diplomat (??)and therefore I was entitled to a US Passport which I accepted ,not knowing US TAX LAW. Recently a,non US, bank requested my Social Security number and i gathered all the info.and applied but i found a paper whch I had been given with my Passport : Excerpt from the Inmigration and Nationality Act section301(b)”Any person who is a nationa and citizen of the United States under paragraph (7) shall loose his nationality and citizenship unless..(1) he shall come to the United Statesand be continuosly present therein for a period of not less tan two years between the ages of fourteen and twenty-eight years” Did I loose the US nationality and don´t have to fill the bureaucratic papers for FACTA ? The bank told me to get lost. If anyone has knowlegde of the I& Nacionalty Act vald in 1955 pls.comment
@Daniel
Your case is not straight forward, but based on what you’ve written so far…
You can look up INA 350 which was repealed in Oct 1978. It might have applied to you if you had done nothing as a USC after 3 years prior to that date (Oct 1975). However, since you “recently” applied for a SSN it likely will be hard to prove that you intended to give up US citizenship prior to 1975. When did you last renew and use your US passport? That’s another indicator they look at.
Yes, it’s true that prior to 1978 under INA 350 they would have taken away your US citizenship against your will, but these days they seem to use a combination of old laws and new laws (1986) which put the burden on you to show that you intentionally and knowingly stopped being an American back in the day.
Thank you Ami,
I applied recently for SSN because the bank pressed me to fill some forms due to having been born inthe US.
The forms requested a SSN number which I don´t have and they told me that I had to obtain one but for that I had to renew Passport and then request which I have .The fact is that I was not aware of taxes in the US,until FACTA and I used a US Passport for eventually going to the US. This is a nightmare,I have been paying my taxes in my country and previously thought taxes were paid where you worked. Reconstructing years back under different tax systems is very difficult ,with the obvious risk of making errors.Seem there is no way out once you are “branded” ,hope you don´t get a heart attack , and that same country tax be approved. I probably won´t be around to see it
Daniel. We are here to try and help. Your situation seems to be difficult.
Do you mind saying what country you live in? Has your bank threatened to close your accounts?
What did you mean when you said ‘ the bank told you to get lost’?
The IGAs all allow for a ‘reasonable explanation” as to why you are not a US citizen in spite of havinf a US birth place. The explanation that your father was a diplomat is perfectly reasonable.
.
At first glance, I suggest you abandon your effort to get a SS number. If you were to get one, you would be claiming to be a US citizen which you might not be. It will be very difficult for you to become compliant with US taxes at this stage of your life
I live in a country in South America which has been caracterized by violence and political inestability.
For this reason I stablished 20 years ago a Trust for a disabled son in a European Country. Although the benifit was intended for my son who is not a US a person and neither are all member of my family and the TRUST was left untouched ,the bank said tha as a US person the I was the beneficiary until I died and the only would my son be beneficiary.In view of this situation the bank demanded that I fill all Facta papers.or the would have to retain 30% etc.I filled the papers they gave me but i could not fill SSN because I don´have one.
The told me I should get one.I went to the Consulate and they told me that first I woulld have to renew Passport. I did that and applied with a letter explaining my situation. They scheduled a meeting which never took place and the cashier told to leave documents and told me that i should get a reply in one to three months .I had been informing the bank of all steps and finally they got tired and told they had to close my account and I should move my money elsewhere. I have now become more knowlegable on Internet and at my age ,77, I see it is to difficult to comply. I feel trapped .
Daniel, welcome to Brock.
Another heart-breaking situation. Could that (discretionary? – not taking effect until your death) trust be held in another of your family member’s names — someone that is NOT a US person / citizen? Another question is would your son who is resident in a European country be deemed by the US a US citizen?
I don’t have any answers. Maybe someone else here has a better feel for your situation. I’m sorry you have to go through with this mess to be able to provide in a trust for this disabled child — you have every reason to feel trapped.
Daniel: My heart goes out to you. You may not be aware that a group of us sent a Human Rights Complaint to the United Nations over this entire taxation/banking issue and we are expecting to hear, any day now, whether or not our submission has been accepted into the complaints process. We are planning to contact the UN later this month to inquire about our status if we have not yet heard. At that time I plan to send another supporting document containing stories that have become known to us in the months that have passed since our Complaint was filed. With your permission I would very much like to include yours. It is a shocking example of abuse by the US government. I would include your comment only and not your name. Thank you!
Cross posted from another thread.
The Daniel Alfaro report is a clear example of the evil that is FATCA … and CRS for that matter.
I dont know which South American country the gentleman resides in but he defines it as dangerous (“caracterized by violence and political inestability” sic) …. how disgraceful it would be should the European country which hosts his disabled child’s trust fund start to report that Trust to his country of residence. Some countries, in the last 50 years, have been known to persecute, prosecute, imprison or even execute people for such things.
How can peace loving fair minded people permit such things as FATCA and CRS in a time when refugees worldwide are at the highest volumes in EUROPE and the Middle East that they have been probably since WWII. Are our Governments insane ?
My son lives with me in South America .The reason I stablished a trust for him in Europe ,20years ago, was due to political inestability where we live. Had I been aware of the of the US taxing its citizens worlwide I could have stablished it through any family members as none is a US person……however until FACTA, I thought you paid taxes on your income where you live. The bank noticed I had been born in the US and this is where the nightmare began. Unfortunately as I read more on the internet I find that the damages to many US persons as a colateral damage from FACTA is widespread. Hopefully the people who are earnestly trying to correct this wil eventually be succesful.
As regard comments from NuzzledNoMore I understand ,from what i read inthe Internet that the UN condemed the country of Eritrea for taxing its citizens world wide .No problema in including case with confidentiality. The only fair solution I see to end with this TAX SLAVERY would be for the US to adopt
the system ,valid worlwide,of taxes where you work