Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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@George,
That’s not what’s happening. The issue is showing them that at the time you began government employment, you believed you were still a US citizen and you knew taking the job was an expatriating act and you intended to relinquish. There isn’t any requirement to know actual code sections.
They’re actually following the letter of the law:
“A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality”.
Prior to 1986 you would lose your USC with no questions asked:
” a person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by…”
To protect US citizens from their own government, in 1986 the power was taken away from the government and given to the individual such that one could not lose USC against one’s will. That was a good thing, except it’s now working against some people in that having the will years after the fact doesn’t seem to count; you had to have known and had the intention at the time. At least, that’s what the consul in Calgary is saying these days.
@what I am and George, it is exactly how What I am stated, he was trying to prove that when I took the government job in 2001 that I was not thinking the I will loose my US citizenship by doing this. And he kept reminding me that I was under oath and again asking when did I know I that having a government job meant I could lose US citizenship?
(1) Re:
You don’t need to know to have known the exact code section at the time your performed your relinquishing act. If you are asked, you need to have a reasonable explanation of why you believed performing the specific act would cause you to terminate your citizenship. I’ve heard of some pretty odd questions being asked, but no one’s mentioned being asked if they specifically knew the article of the code. Just my 2c — I think if someone were to get a negative recommendation solely because they didn’t know the exact code section at the time they relinquished, that they would prevail with their CLN application.
(2) Re:
I believe the consul is correct on this point. You have to have had the intent at the time you performed the relinquishing act.
(3)
Immigration and Nationality Act, s. 349 (a)
It seems clear to me that if a person knows for sure that they’re not a US citizen, they can’t have the intention of relinquishing their US citizenship.
Where I don’t agree with the consul – It seems to me that if a person isn’t sure of their citizenship status (which is quite possible with US citizenship since 1986), then by performing a relinquishing act, with intent, they are intentionally making it certain that IF they are a US citizen, they no longer are.
I agree with pacifica777’s take on what the consul was saying but here is how I see it.
You were told that unless you lived or worked in the US before you were 21 that after that point your citizenship was forfeit. You did not act to make sure that didn’t happen, which meant your intention to give up your citizenship was intended. SO had you know that you were given false information (which is the fault of the USG official who told you this) you certainly would have taken the government job knowing that it would be a relinquishing act because you have always intended to relinquish.
Hair-splitting, I suppose, but that would be the way I would try to sell it.
Basically, you have never wanted to be an American citizen and have more than once now deliberately committed acts that would count as relinquishing. The Calgary consul might not buy it but he doesn’t have to. You need to convince someone in Washington that you were the victim of bad info the first time and the second time you simply didn’t know what “chapter and verse” to quote but you certainly meant to be Canadian only.
@George, if one were taking the oath of citizenship soon and planning a trip to Calgary, what should one do in advance, at the ceremony and present to the consul – in your opinion.
Canada Girl 403. Sorry for your troubles. They are bending the rules as you are probably aware. As intent is a state of mind and nobody is a mind reader, they are supposed to decide on the basis of preponderance of evidence. A lawyer for state wrote all this down a few yrs. ago but I can’t find it.
Your lack of US residence, passport , bank account, holiday home, failure to register any children and so on are all prima facie evidence of your intent to ditch US citizenship and is supposed to be taken as such. Lord knows why they are bending the law.
@Yoga Girl, “@George, if one were taking the oath of citizenship soon and planning a trip to Calgary, what should one do in advance, at the ceremony and present to the consul – in your opinion.”
Prior to taking the Canadian Oath, I would prepare an Affadavit/Statutory Declaration which states the facts. The facts being you are a US Citizen having been born in the US, you are a landed Canadian immigrant since__________, you applied for citizenship on ________, you were approved on__________, your swearing in is on _________, that without being under any duress, you are taking the oath of canadian citizenship with the express intention of relinquishing your citizenship under —–insert US ciode sections——-. That it is your intention to relinquish your US Citizenship.
That single page letter would be sworn before a lawyer/notary/other qualified person.
“Quickly thereafter” afternoon or next day, swear out a second one but that one will have all the above information but including the date you took the oath and at the beginning you will state, I am a Canadian Citizen having relinquished my US citizenship.
Both single page documents, do it yourself. Make it meaty.
Oh, if you were previously registered to vote in the US, send that office a letter after you become Canadian to remove you from the rolls. Get proof of posting.
You should be able to swear both documents very cheaply.
Here is a link that kind of describes it;
http://www.servicealberta.ca/pdf/ltmanual/AFF-1-SCHEDULEA.pdf
@George,
Have people actually done this, or has everyone waited to receive their actual Canadian citizenship certificate?
@WhatamI, I do know of individuals outside Canada who have done just that, except the document name is different in varying legal jurisdictions and who you get to accept the sworn oath is sometimes different.
But it nails to the wall your intent prior to and immediately after as to what you did.
Other side benefits? You would have something in writing all “official looking” to show people prior to receiving a CLN. It gives you flexibility in timing to get down to the consulate, though you would need to insure you do not “act like an american” from the date of the sworn affidavit to visiting the consulate.
And it is not expensive at all……
@ YogaGirl
My husband took a DIY “letter of intent” to his citizenship ceremony. It simply read:
I, __________, on this date __________, in the city of __________, affirm my allegiance to Canada and in so doing it is my intention to relinquish my citizenship in the United States of America to avoid any conflict of allegiances.
Signed __________
Witnessed __________
The Canadian Citizenship Officer who signed it was absolutely delighted to do it. (This was not in Calgary but another city in Alberta.) My husband then took this original document with him to his relinquishment appointment (previously he had e-mailed them a jpeg of it). His relinquishment went quick as a wink, except for the wait periods between the brief encounters with the people behind the bullet glass windows.
I just got a phone call from the US Consulate in Toronto. They were confirming my mailing address …. for my CLN!!
I’ll post again after I have it in my hot little hands.
OMG what great news!
Great news mykitty! Just in time for the June 15th celebrations.
Congratulations — big time — My Kitty!
You did it! You really made this CLN happen, by not giving in and making them follow their own law. I think this will be encouraging to others, not to back down when they know they’re right. A shame you had such a bad experience in the first place — awful — but you turned it around. I am so glad it worked out and your CLN reflects the reality of your life. I am really happy for you!
@mykitty
Is that a back-dated CLN or just a regular one?
@Polly – yes, backdated to when I began my Canadian Federal Government employment in the late 1980’s.
Until you have it and give us the post confirming that, big congratulations, mykitty!! Bravo for your stance!
@My Kitty..
Congratulations!!!!! I am so happy that you were sucessful in getting your CLN and relinquishment. I have my CLN framed. It felt so good getting that call and then I was so antsy waiting for it to come in. It arrived while I was away on a trip so I got to see it via Email so that I could sign the Letter they want you to sign that you received it. I mailed it registered mail. and tracked it. Hugs
@ mykitty
Congratulations! I’m so happy for you. And I must say I’m relieved as well since I have my appointment next week in Toronto to document my past relinquishment based on my government employment.
You had difficulty in Toronto because you are (or were!!) a dual citizen, correct?
@mykitty
Congrats! Then it looks like you are free to go!
Way to go mykitty!
@Kathy – That is correct. I was a dual citizen at birth.
@George and @Em, thank you! I am waiting on my letter to come take the oath though I fear that if I am not in the Canada Day bunch, I will be stuck waiting until after the summer. The Canadian govt seems to collectively grind to a halt from end of June until after Labor Day.
@mykitty, what wonderful news! That should give hope to others in similar circumstances.
Congratulations MyKitty! What an excellent outcome.
How long did that take….over a year? Your consular visit was last February was it not? I am wondering if you had to contact the consulate at anytime during your waiting period, or if they had any follow up questions for you at anytime.
I had my consular visit this past April, and was told they were sending my relinquishing act of working for the government to DC with a denial. Your results are encouraging.
@Geri – I visited the US Consulate at the end of January 2014. I hope to get my CLN today or tomorrow, so it will be just under 5 months. (I’m siting at home, waiting for Canada Post – and tracking the envelope.)
The day after my appointment, I sent an email to the US Consulate to confirm that they were sending all of my paperwork to Washington (I included a detailed list of my paperwork, including each document from my employee file). I received an email back assuring me that they had sent everything.
I did not contact the US Consulate or Washington after that date. No one contacted me from the US Consulate or from Washington until I got the phone call this past Friday (from the US Consulate).