Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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@Just Me says:
My belief is the State Department is tightening up the exits. Relinquishing allows many people to exit at a point in time where tax rules were much less punitive. By denying the claim of prior relinquishment, the only option is to renounce as of 2014 which is much less friendly. Forcing people to renounce as of today will drive down numbers given the more onerous present requirements.
@ Mr A. I was at the Calgary office. In hind site I know if I would have left off my original form about what the lawyer when I was adopted told me that I would give up my US citizenship at 21 if I did not live there things would have gone different. I made a mistake trying to show that I have always intended to relinquish. Sometimes less is more. “Big sigh”. Hopefully Washinginton will follow the 4A & B and issue it. Nothing in there says you have to prove intent.
@BC-Doc
what you say makes sense, assuming these Dimwits can think that logically. Never under estimate the ability of a bureaucratic to be petty or Machevellian just because they can!
@george said:
I think the attitude has stayed the same, and just the punishment has changed.
Congress has always hated Americans who leave the US to live elsewhere. Prior to 1986, the worst punishment they could think of was to strip you of your precious US citizenship. Today, the worst punishment they can think of is to make you keep it.
@Canadagirl.403 (formerly Just Me)
Exactly my husband’s experience in Calgary in March- Cnd citizen, intimidated by border guards to get US passport if he wanted to see close terminally ill family member. USe of passport the glitch. He was badgered, harassed, yelled at by an angry Vice? Consul- Whole interrogation took 3 hrs. It’s his story, so when he is ready to post here, he will. I am so disgusted I’m looking for a fight as soon as I’m asked where I was born- not in the USA, thank all the heavenly powers!
I too believe they are tightening the ratchet wrench to humiliate and demoralize any standing in line to get their ‘exit paper’.
@Canadagirl.403, @Benedict
I’m sorry to read this story. I am relieved about the detail that the consul finally seems to understand the difference between 4A and 4B. As a Canadian Citizen, 4B does not apply and an oath is not required for the government employment to be a potentially expatriating act. The FAM mentions oaths in various places, and says that an oath for employment by a person who already has the foreign citizenship is meaningless, and that for non-citizens it has to change their status with respect to that foreign country.
@Benedict points out the possibility that the wording of an oath could have included denouncing other citizenships. We can only guess if that would persuade the DoS lawyers, but seems worth sending if that’s the case.
What in the world happened in Calgary? My husband’s relinquishment in February was over in 3 minutes (wait on chair time much longer than that of course). He was only claiming relinquishment back to his CND citizenship ceremony in late 2013 so that was probably a big factor in how he was treated which was quite good actually. He had a witnessed statement of his intent at the time of citizenship which the consulate accepted without questioning. Anyway no fee for him but he still has all the exit form mess to deal with. I’m finding Canadian Girl’s account and others to be very worrisome and I’m outraged at the growing intransigence and persnickitiness of these consulate workers. I don’t care if they are overloaded. They should direct their frustration at the US gov’t and not take it out on their fellow, wanting-to-be-former, countrymen.
@Em,
I believe they view past relinquishment based on naturalization much differently than based on government employment. As long as a person stops acting like an American (voting, passport renewal, etc) after naturalization, I’m not aware of anybody being harassed or denied.
I am putting together a very detailed letter with all their laws and legislation to be attached about all the different ways I have relinquished and asking them to attach it to my file coming from the Calgary office, I am going to send it to Washington registered mail, does any one know the correct address to send it to. I am also thinking I will request a meeting with my MP with all my documents to see if there is anything that can be done to ensure my back dated CLN is processed. If I am still rejected after all that I guess I will need an a lawyer to appeal. But I am hoping it does not come to that. If anyone knows the correct address please let me know. I want it to be reviewed with my file.
@ Canadagirl.403
I’ll be going to the Toronto Consulate soon to document my past relinquishment based on government employment as well. I am, or actually WAS a dual citizen at birth (born in US to Can parents), so I fall under 4A. I’ve never considered myself an American as I’ve lived in Canada since I was 2.
If I knew about the government employment section of the code and I state that it was my intent to relinquish my US citizenship when I started that job and haven’t done anything since that shows I wanted to keep it, how can they possibly argue that?
@Kathy I sure hope it goes well for you. I lived in the US two days in the hospital, both parents Canadian not married, adopted dad Canadian. But in Calgary they questioned every thing and my error was saying I was told I would lose my citizenship at 21 (by a lawyer) if I did not live or work in the US so they pushed that if I already thought I lost it my government job was not relinquish. And when did I know it would before or after I took the job. I truly was a brutal interview for me. Now just need to find the correct address to send my reasons with a copy of there laws to add to my file. I have searched every where for an address, but not sure what the actual area they are processed would be called. I know nothing about the US.
Canadagirl – Pacifica may know the Washington address.
@Kathy
In January, the Toronto Consulate told me that because I was born a dual citizen there were only 2 ways for me to relinquish (renouncing and treason). This is wrong, but I couldn’t convince the person I was speaking with that I had a valid case.
I requested that they send my file to Washington anyway.
If you have any specific questions about my experience, please ask.
@ mykitty
Thanks. I’ve seen some of your previous posts where you mentioned this. I think I’m prepared for that as I know to just to get them to send my info to Washington anyway. I do want to note their name and position and what section of the code or handbook they are basing their reasoning on just in case I have to bring it to a lawyer later.
My concern were these last posts. I thought I had lost my citizenship before, but then the laws changed. But I also knew I could (and wanted to) lose my USC when I started to work for the government. I just never got it documented. I didn’t know CLNs existed.
When I had my first visit at the consulate, I thought I had to document the first loss of citizenship. I didn’t have a proper state issued birth certificate when I went, so in their eyes I had no proof of US citizenship, so I couldn’t prove I had lost it. Once they said that, I didn’t even bother mentioning the government thing. Why would I? I just took all my paperwork back and left.
So now I have the proper birth certificate and am heading back. I’m not even mentioning the first loss of citizenship this time, but they may have kept copies of my first papers and give me grief like Canadagirl.403.
@ Canadagirl403,
The office that approves CLNs for Canada is:
Clay Adler, Division Chief
Western Hemisphere Affairs
Office of American Citizens Services
10th Floor, SA-17
Department of State
2201 C Street NW
Washington DC 20520
@pacifica777
Thank you so very much, I had tried to call a number in Washington, left a message to get an address, they had someone in the Calgary consulate call me back and tell me to bring it in there, that they would scan it and send it with me stuff that had not yet been sent to Washington.
My concern with doing that is that I have detailed my difficult experience with the vice counsel and I am not certain that they would forward my letter with supporting documents with my other stuff. So I think it would be best to send it on my own.
Do you have thoughts on that?
Thank you so much for the address.
I always thought “Just Me” was a man. Hmm, what happened?
The JustMe we know and love and learn so much from is a man. Thus, this former ‘Just Me’s’ name change.
@Just Me, if you give it to Calgary they will forward it, after they studied it and likely revised their cover letter.
Calgary WILL want to defeat you.
I would send direct by trackable mail with a second set by first class mail.
@George
You mean to Washington direct by trackable mail and second set regular mail to Washington or Calgary?
@Kathy, I think they keep it all scanned and ready to be pulled and checked for further info. The lady at the Calgary office today told me they scan everything and the paper copies are archived. I am sure they have you previous visit on file.
@Just Me……yes my wording was poor.
An original set to Washington by trackable mail. Pay extra and require a signature.
But a second original with a first class stamp and again to Washington.
The second mailing is “just in case” someone filters out your letter and loses it. Mail the second letter a few days after the trackable letter.
Bypass Calgary completely, they are not your friend and if you give them advance knowledge they will possibly use it against you.
I would think it better that the person in Washington is reading their letter and then they have your letter to explain things.
Remember the burden under the US Code section is on you it is based on preponderance of the evidence.
May I suggest that you look at the DOS field manual before you write your letter and then incorporate the catch words and phrases of that manual. You can also cite that manual and other DOS manuals.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/109065.pdf
A suggestion to all Brockers is to read all the Department of State manuals before relinquishing!!
@George, thanks I will do both as suggested, I have also sent an email requesting a meeting with my MP to see what they can do to help me out. I work for the federal government, I know they do not like media attention so I will mention to him if he cannot do something I may need to go to the media in regard to this issue.
@Just Me, here is another link of more manuals;
http://www.state.gov/m/a/dir/regs/fam/07fam/c22713.htm
Good idea to meet with your MP. Make sure you convey to him/her the same argument that will go in your letter.
You said that you still work for the Government, thats probably good. If its true, you need to convey in the strongest terms that your loyalty is solely and absolutely to Canada. Would you expect the same thing for your counterpart in the USA? If yes, say so.
I am almost thinking the person in Calgary is playing a gotcha game something like this.
Consulate Officer: “Just Me, you said you took employment with Canada in 1996, correct?”
Just Me: “Yes….”
Consulate Officer; “Do you know about 8 U.S. Code § 1481 a (4) A?”
Just me: “Yes…”
Consulate Officer: “Did you know about that code section in 1996?”
Just me…. stutters…..
Consulate Officer; “If you did not know the exact code section in 1996, how could you have relinquished, how could you relinquish without know the exact code section.”
You may want to look up all the synonyms for relinquish.
Did any of those other words describe your inner mind state at the time you took employment?
@ George
She’s just Canadagirl.403 now. When she first arrived at Brock she wasn’t aware someone else was using the Just Me name. Just Me is still our one and only longtime Brocker who is a “he” living sometimes in the USA and sometimes Down Under.
@ Canadagirl.403
No need to qualify with “formerly” now. Name changes are taken in stride here. Nobledreamer to Tricia, Gwen to GwEvil, for example.