Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
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Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
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@George, not sure what point you’re trying to make.
I was just commenting on the differences in requirements between two banks in Israel, not declaring what the banks are obligated to do (or whether they’re actually doing it).
Here in Australia my bank really didn’t seem to have me listed as a US person – or care, which means perhaps (1) they really aren’t that interested in smoking out US citizens or (2) all the work is being done by the back end database people who couldn’t care about my CLN anyway.
Either way I did what I could to protect my privacy which is likely an illusion to begin with. As I’m not hiding anything and am actually up to date on my tax filing, AND I don’t really have enough for anyone to bother confiscating, it’s probably academic. Hope so anyhow.
@shunrata, the point is that even with a CLN, our banks will still legally be allowed to hand over our private information to a foreign power. Solely because we have a US place of birth.
@George – is the procedure for banks to report automatically on U.S. place of birth, or is the procedure to send out requests for clients to fill in either a W-9 or a W-8BEN which will then prompt a need for the CLN to be shown to the bank if the client fills in the W-8BEN?
@OntarioCitizen. When you read through the IGAs they basically work like this.
1.) There is a mandatory reporting requirement IF a bank finds an unambiguous US Place of Birth. That reporting requirement is NOT citizenship based. (This is poor document writing IMO)
2.) The Bank then has the OPTION of deciding if it wants to attempt to “cure” that indica. The IGA provides legal cover for the bank that does not want to cure the defective indica.
So the procedure is to AUTOMATICALLY report accounts based on US place of birth REGARDLESS of actual Citizenship. A bank is under no obligation with the IGA to look at a CLN or even ask for one. I did not get this figured out until this week after seeing some posts from Israel on IBS. Then I looked at the document agaian and it was shazam.
The agreement was written for the banks by the banks. It is not written for the victims.
I did an experiment with a major UK High Street Bank. To open an account online they ask both citizenship and place of birth. If you have a CLN then you are absolutely not a US Citizen. But I could see that programming as problematic. There was no question, “Do you have a CLN?”
So I call the number to open an account by phone. Get passed along three times but get to someone who knows FATCA. I was advised that this bank would report any account I may open regardless if I gave them a CLN because I would be declaring a US place of birth. It did not matter to them that a holder of a CLN was absolutely not a US Citizen. The individual explained further that this bank was not making the election in the IGA to cure that defect and that I would have to take this up with HMRC.
So Boris Johnson, he better get ready to have his private financial information ratted to a foreign power.
@George is exactly right. Under the IGA’s (Canada has signed the standard form, US-drafted IGA without material addition), the default mode is turn over the data if in any doubt. Where there is an IGA in place, Banks still don’t have to report via the local taxing authority. They can, if they choose, deal directly with the IRS and follow Treasury regulations. Or they can follow the IGA and give to the local taxing authority who will pass it on. Secondly, regardless of which route they choose (government to government or direct), the only due diligence that is REQUIRED of the banks is to discover who is a possible US Person. Once they have one, they can either pass along the data without telling you or – if THEY WISH TO – they can contact you, ask for a CLN, etc. Canada’s implementation guidelines call for the Banks to contact you and ask for self-certification. They may – but that costs time and money. I see no sign of a sanction if they follow the letter of the IGA and simply pass over the data as is without pestering themselves to find a reason not to.
In short, it is TOTALLY up to the local bank as to whether they check for a CLN before hitting “send” on the data dump. The guidelines that ask them to are just that – guidelines. Neither the IGA nor the implementation statute impose any such requirement. George Orwell – you didn’t know the half of it!
Every time I do this, I feel obliged to remind all and sundry that Canadian banks at least have very little reason to have any clue where you were born, still less where your parents were, unless you have been making a point of telling them. For almost everyone, there is almost no chance that any of this is going to make any difference – yet. The Sword of Damocles that is CBT and the world’s must ruthless and malevolent organized crime racket (if not necessarily most efficient) known as the IRS will continue to be there and the IRS will still spend its days trying to dream up ways of bankrupting hapless people that no sympathetic Washington Post article will be written to save. 7 million expats nobody has heard of or cares about make a tempting target. (PS – I’m sure my writing will get sunnier if we ever manage to shake this endless winter…)
I’m not sure which country’s IGA this recent discussion about FATCA reporting and IGAs is referring to (UK, Isreal, Australia), but I just had another look at Canada’s IGA (and the draft CRA guidance) and it has all the same language giving the FFI the option to do as they please.
Accounts under $50K are not reportable “unless the FFI elects otherwise”.
Accounts with unambiguous US birthplace are reportable by the FFI “unless it elects to apply subparagraph B(4)…” (which is to try to cure the indicia).
The CRA draft guidance says:
The CRA expects that financial institutions will generally attempt to cure indicia before determining that an account is reportable.
But that doesn’t seem a strong enough statement to take much comfort in.
@WhatAmI , I wish I would have realized that better when we were all engaged in letter campaigns in our respective countries.
Do you think your Conservative MPs realize that Canadian Only Citizens with the prime piece of paper known as a CLN will still be ratted out to a foreign government?
That why I think I think purely for peace of mind and survival, regardless if you have a CLN, to avoid any financial institution that asks for place of birth. Unless its a login security question and you only use a village or county name.
Bottom line if a financial institution asks for place of birth, I believe they are going to rat you out period.
This is racist, this is discriminatory, plain and simple.
Has anyone from August or Sept.2013 received there CLN yet?? It sure is taking along time..
Making me Nervous!
With CLN in hand, one can tell the US to “F” off from the date of the CLN going forward.
There is no logical reason for any expat to not obtain a CLN other than fear of dealing with the State Department and/or fear of maybe opening up some old compliance issues.
The CLN is the ticket to freedom. Why remain in the US expat “hostage” system any longer than one has to? Unless of course you have Stockholm Syndrome?
CLN received today, 12 days after second renunciation appointment. It seems pretty clear to me that these are no loger going through Washington, but are simply being approved by the local consul.
@Jane Doe belge, Congratulations!! That is really fast! What a great feeling that must be!!
I am 7 months and still waiting.
@Saddened123
I went in July 2013 in Toronto. Last month I was told it may take a year.
Well there is not much money in my accounts. So far the IRS can;t touch this money.
I have no intention of ever setting foot in the USA again. To me the CLN is the cherry on the cake. The cake being I am a citizen of Canada, only .
Do not despair! Mine took 10 months.
@Jane Doe belge, wow they’re getting faster and faster. Congratulations! Another black sheep has left the flock.
@X, re: “With CLN in hand, one can tell the US to “F” off from the date of the CLN going forward.
There is no logical reason for any expat to not obtain a CLN other than fear of dealing with the State Department and/or fear of maybe opening up some old compliance issues.
The CLN is the ticket to freedom. Why remain in the US expat “hostage” system any longer than one has to? Unless of course you have Stockholm Syndrome? ”
We’ve had that discussion here at Brock many times, and never reached a consensus.
Personally, I think that anyone who gets a CLN, better be prepared to exit the IRS system properly as well. And for many this is cost prohibitive. Its not that difficult to arrange one’s finances so as to go unreported through FATCA, at least as it stands now in Canada.
WhatAmI and George and anyone else watching this one, Professor Allison Christians just pointed this out to me regarding the Canadian IGA (as I was corresponding with her on another matter). It calmed me down quite a bit as I corresponded with my bank also this morning, asking for complete assurance that my information would not be turned over to the CRA to then go on to the IRS even though I have a CLN.
@WhiteKat said:
“Its not that difficult to arrange one’s finances so as to go unreported through FATCA, at least as it stands now in Canada.”
Are you relying on or planning anything that isn’t on this list?
1) don’t open new accounts after June 30
2) rely on FFIs to honour the $50K threshold and not even search your files
3) rely on FFIs to honour the $1M threshold and only do electronic searches and not find anything
4) hope to find a deemed-compliant FFI such as a credit union
5) give away all your non-registered money
I’ve had repeated offers for #4 from a good “friend”.
@Calgary411
Well, that is encouraging. Hopefully they will update the CRA’s “draft” Guidance to make that perfectly clear.
Does she know anything about the “optional” $50K reporting threshold? 🙂
@WhiteKat I left the US as a child, I was never part of the US tax system. I have my CLN now, I saw no reason why I should enter a system I was never a part of just to exit it. I’m a Canadian living in Canada, it makes me sad to see other Canadians living in Canada think then need to comply with the laws of a foreign country.
They want customers..it is a business .. Be pro active And ask . Most Will keep u if they can . They know You Will recommend them if You are comfortable with them.. Stop the chicken little thinking..good luck
The y want customers..it is a business .. Be pro active And ask . Most Will keep u if they can . They know You Will recommend them if You are comfortable with them.. Stop the chicken little thinking..good luck. This has not Been posted
@TrueNorth, I agree with: ” I saw no reason why I should enter a system I was never a part of just to exit it”. But, to my way of thinking, getting a CLN IS ENTERING THE SYSTEM.
If you enter the system, with the goal of exiting the system, then the only 100% clean exit is to also make sure you are tax compliant, IMHO.
I foresee a thriving market for counterfeit CLN’s and modifications to existing passports re: place of birth. Here in Canada, since passports are not yet required for account opening, CLN’s are probably not necessary (unless you are ‘out’ at your bank), but wouldn’t it be nice to change that pesky little place of birth field.
@WhatAmI re: “Are you relying on or planning anything that isn’t on this list?
1) don’t open new accounts after June 30
2) rely on FFIs to honour the $50K threshold and not even search your files
3) rely on FFIs to honour the $1M threshold and only do electronic searches and not find anything
4) hope to find a deemed-compliant FFI such as a credit union
5) give away all your non-registered money ”
#3 is not an issue for me unfortunately, but your list is almost the same as my list for now, except I would add #6, ‘give away non-registered money to family, and have them pay my bills’. That would be a last, desperate resort for me, and I would rather stick with options 1 through 4.
I look at this as a ‘staying one step ahead’ sort of game. We don’t know what we will be faced with down the road. There is a good chance the Canadian courts will strike this down, but that could take years. If for some reason, #2 does not work out, then #6 could be an alternative. #4 is an option, but there are very few small credit unions, which are unlikely to stay small once US person’s start storming their doors. I wonder if any of them have noticed the FATCA effect yet. Actually, I wonder if the banks have noticed a lot of new people coming in with deposits in the 45 – 49K range (45K max is better to allow for some growth before having to open a new account somewhere else).
At some point, if things get really nasty, a #7 might also get added to my list (see earlier comment, and comments by Don).
@WhieKat
I see I mis-numbered my comment. I should have said “I’ve had repeated offers for #5 from a good “friend”.” (I said 4 instead of 5).
With regards to #4, deemed-compliant FFIs, I think you know this but there is more than one case. You mentioned very small credit unions, but the other is a credit union of any size that limits account holders to Canadian residents. Such FFIs won’t even have to care about US persons at all, and there is no limit to account size. That’s my biggest hope at the moment, but as discussed previously we may not know what any given credit union might do until after June 30.