Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart Part 2
If clicking on a link brought you to the wrong page on the comment thread, click here to go to the current page.
Wonder what really happens at the consulates? Find out in the Isaac Brock Society’s Consulate Report Directory, currently 279 pages of first-hand accounts of renunciation/relinquishment appointments, arranged by consulate location, along with further information and links to the required Dept of State forms and the Dept of State manuals used by the consulates in processing CLN applications, with an appendix containing a timeline chart (booking-meeting-CLN) as reported by consulate location.
The Directory is updated as consulate visit stories are posted on the website.
You can post here or elsewhere on the site (we’ll keep an eye out for them). Some comments may be excerpted or condensed slightly in the consulate reports. The original posts and comments remain on their threads are not edited.
Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences…and keep ’em coming! It’s a new experience for everyone and your information is really helpful.
To change or delete your report in the Directory, you can post the change as a comment on this thread or e-mail Pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca
Click here for the Consulate Report Directory
Notes:
Consulates are listed alphabetically by country and the Directory’s table of contents links to each section (they don’t look like links, but they are.)
This thread is a continuation of Consulate Report Directory Part 1, which contains earlier discussion on this topic, 929 comments from its inception in March 2012 through February 2013.
To Book an Appointment and/or Request Information from your Local Consulate:
This post by Eric, Almost No US Citizenship Renunciation Appointments Left During 2016 in Dublin, contains a chart of links to the consulates’ website pages on renunciation/relinquishment, for info on booking appointments and/or requesting information at your location. (The title highlights Dublin, but the charts, article and discussion cover consulates around the world.)
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
If clicking on a link brought you to the wrong page on the comment thread, click here to go to the current page.
Globalcitizen,
When you mentioned you had been in Canada since age 12, I was looking for clarification on your age when you naturalized. I have no ties to US, never have since I was 13. I have been and continue to be an active and involved Canadian citizen for the past 34 years but because I naturalized and took my oath prior to being 18 years old, I am most likely unable to obtain a CLN. The people I know that have already tried to obtain past-relinquishments when they were minors have been unsuccessful. I was hoping you might have been the first minor to have successfully relinquished, unfortunately you were not.
Thank you for your reply, it is very much appreciated. – Geri
@Em, the magic date will be the day he goes to the embassy for his relinquishing appointment. As he doesn’t have a Canadian passport yet, make sure he takes his Canadian citizenship certificate and his signed and witnessed statement as they will want proof that a) he’s actually a Canadian citizen and b) by relinquishing he’s not being made stateless. Although he’s become Canadian until he relinquishes he’s still also a US citizen so the date of his relinquishment is the day he becomes Canadian only. The CLN will reflect this. There is a sentence on the CLN which reads “That said expatriating act was performed voluntarily with the intent to relinquish United States citizenship; That: he/she thereby expatriated (him/her) self on (Date) under the provisions of Section …..” The State Department will put a stamp in the Department Use only box which will shown when they approved it, but the relevant date is the one in the sentence.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81609.pdf
As a soon-to-be renunciant, I have one question: I have at least 1 long-term visa and various contracts (rental contracts, business contracts, etc) that used my US passport data. So even after I renounce, it would be convenient to keep the US passport (even if it has holes, a cancellation stamp, blood or whatever). Does the US embassy let you keep the cancelled passport after you renounce?
@copenhagen233
You’ll be asked to hand it over at the US consulate when you go for your renunciation appointment, and they’ll send it back to you (canceled and void) along with your CLN documents (presumably several months later).
I’d change the info over to your new passport as soon as you can though. I doubt the visa would continue to be valid in a renunciation cancelled passport. It might be different if you had both old and new US passports, but a visa in a cancelled US one being used along with another country’s passport won’t work I don’t think.
thanks to both of you for the comments. yes, i have to the extent possible already switched everything to my other passport. But to be sure, it has been easier to apply for residency visa(s) with a US passport because everything “rhymes”. for example i only need to show 1 police certificate report (US) as opposed to the US+the other country. my national origin (unfortunately the US) matches with the US passport so that is just a US birth certificate required with no further documentation. it’s just been simpler this way..
What seems to be the average time for Cln after renunciation.is last July until now long? Thank you
@ Robert,
Depends what zone you’re in. A six month wait, although it’s ridiculously long, is not abnormal right now for Canada. I don’t think anyone who’s been to Toronto since July has reported getting theirs yet. You can check the time chart on page 152 of the Directory.
@Robert, a US consulate in Ontario recently (last quarter of 2013) advised a relinquisher that the wait was 8-9 months for a CLN. Don’t know how uniform that advisement is between different consulates/embassy and as answered by different individual consular officials in Canada nor how the wait might differ between the lag faced by those who are ‘renunciants’, vs. CLNs for recent relinquishments, vs. those seeking to obtain a CLN for a decades old or older historic relinquishment.
@Robert
I relinquished to be effective 1993. I went in July 2013 in Toronto . Still waiting.
@Northernstar @Robert looks like it is taking longer than it used to. I relinquished Sept. 26 2013 still no word. I’m just going to go ahead and plan my spring trip to see my dad. I’m not going to make him wait any longer. I’ll report if I don’t have my CLN in hand if there are any issues with crossing the border. I was told four to six months. It’s been four now.
That is absolutely what you need to do, Atticus! Chances are you will have no problem. May it be a wonderful visit with your dad!
That we have to fear what happens at the border for a visit to our families in the US comes under ‘rule by FEAR’ as all else happening with FATCA and US citizenship-based taxation — and so much else.
Lady Liberty must be shedding many a tear.
I have been corresponding with someone who came to the Toronto meeting on Jan 25. This person went to the Consulate today and had news as to changed procedures for Toronto:
Hi Tricia
i don’t have too much time to respond right now, but here’s a quick summary. Evidently there’s a new process for renunciations—at least here in TO. I think I didn’t see this on the consular website, first, because I wasn’t looking for it, and second because I may have been on an outdated page or something, but the guy at the consulate showed me on his computer how to get to the renunciation info. When I got home I checked on my own computer: I went to http://toronto.usconsulate.gov; then to drop down U.S. Citizen Services; then to Other Consulate services; then to renunciation. The first thing the renunciation page says is
Please send an e-mail to Torontopassport@state.gov for information and procedures on how to renounce or relinquish citizenship.
I think I got off on the wrong track when I googled US Consulate Toronto. Who knows.
Anyway, I took home the forms, filled them out and emailed them back asking for an appointment to renunciate, noting that I had already had my first interview. I had to scan the documents and there was some back and forth because the attachments were visible only when you scrolled down the page. Finally that got all sorted out, and they sent me an appointment for March 4 to complete the process. It was very clear from the minute i spoke to someone after clearing all the security that you no longer book online. You make a request by email and they book the appointment for you. This is a new process, as is the fact that, if you do follow it, you have both interviews at one session, rather than two separately.
Anyway, I’m almost there!
You can share any of the above with anyone. Also, it’s clear that if you’ve acted like a US citizen since your naturalization—i.e., getting a passport, filing taxes, then it’s clear that you didn’t intend to lose your US citizenship. The very nice fellow who did my first interview asked, among other things, when I had started to think about renunciation. He also said that a lot of folks like me—I think he said “seniors”, which isn’t inaccurate–want to renunciate in order to simplify their lives. He said they have about four renunciation appointments a week.
I’ll be in touch later, but hope the above helps others. Oh, and he also said it would take up to about 8 months for the State Department to review my forms and presumably send my CLN. I just want this to all happen in 2014 so I won’t be into another tax year!
Best,
xoxoxo
8 months! Things are really slowing down at the DOS.
@Trishia
Wonderful news that your friend is on the way to freedom. Please thank him for me for the update. I wonder if I can use that email address to check on my CLN staus . It is 2 days away from 7 months that I have been waiting since I was at the US Consul in Toronto. I guess I will wait until March now.
Thanks, Trishia for posting this.
@Trishia,
Thanks to you and your correspondent for reporting that recent experience at Toronto. I hope that this new process there doesn’t slow things down – now that the FATCA IGA and US CBT has gotten more airing in the media – and thus the numbers lining up to renounce can be expected to increase exponentially.
I feel skeptical that the true numbers are only 4 renunciations in Toronto per week – unless now, with making appts by email they are rationing out the spots more sparsely. At my appt. in the last quarter of 2013, there were at least two of us whose processing overlapped. And only one appt was required. Strangely, they did not ask for (and therefore didn’t examine my US birth certificate at all), which was a prior concern for me because the only one I have ever had is very similar in format to the one another Canadian consulate (Vancouver?) rejected, and gave @tiger so much trouble about.
Our reasons for expatriating are none of their business, and not required in order to process our expatriation in the established and prescribed manner. The question of timing is only of relevance in establishing when the concrete qualifying expatriating act occurred for a relinquishment – not when the individual “started to think” about it.
In the official public statements in the media, when US State Department officials have been asked to comment on the sharply upwards trend of renunciations, they always respond that the reason is “personal”; ““…….We don’t really speculate on the reasons why people choose to renounce,” said State Department Consular Bureau spokesperson Beth Finan. “It’s a personal decision.”” http://globalnews.ca/news/782020/why-are-so-many-american-expats-giving-up-citizenship-its-a-taxing-issue/
That official public statement conflicts with my experience (asked for reason twice, and ‘why now?”), and with the one just reported.
@ Trishia and friend,
Thanks for the update on the Toronto booking procedure.
The man’s comment that they were doing 4 renunciations a week is somewhat puzzling, as they booked an appointment for March 4th. A 3-week booking delay is consistent with the booking delay of past two years when they seemed to be doing more like 4 a day! (There were 3 in the hour I was there.) Anyway, we’ll stay tuned ….
Re the line: “Also, it’s clear that if you’ve acted like a US citizen since your naturalization—i.e., getting a passport, filing taxes, then it’s clear that you didn’t intend to lose your US citizenship,” I’m not clear on who said that. But if a consulate employee is saying that, this is very disturbing. Stand your ground! You shouldn’t have to, but unfortunately several of us have had to, on various legal points, including this one – and got our correctly-dated CLNs.
You have the right to have your file evaluated as a whole, with consideration given to the circumstances under which you performed any act that might indicate continuing US citizenship.
Depending on these factors, then, yes, according to US law, it is still possible that a person did continue their US citizenship after performing a potentially relinquishing act. However, according to US law, it is also very possible they did not.
Immigration and Nationalities Act, s. 349(b)
Note: We’ve had several people who had used a passport or filed taxes and had no problem at all. The consulate realised it was circumstance-dependent (eg misinformation, confusion, intimidation by DHS, etc.) and evaluated it in light of that and in light of the whole 4079. So, in general I’d say, don’t expect a fight, but do be prepared to stand your ground if necessary.
@Pacifica
I am familiar with this individual’s particulars and unfortunately in this case, relinquishment is not an option. If you want further details, kindly pm me. When I first received her email, I immediately went to the online calendar and was puzzled by the wait of a month. Although March 4 was basically, a month.There are many appointments available online. However, if they have changed their procedure to email only, they also may have changed the number they are willing to process. I don’t know whether the consular official actually gave her the info about relinquishing. She had gone to the meeting here on Jan 25, and we discussed it via email; since she does not say she was told this directly by the consular officer, I don’t think it’s fair to assume it came from him.
@Darlene,
That is the standard email address to reach the consulate. You could certainly try it. My son has still not received his nor have others who have been waiting as well.
@badger,
Did you give them your birth certificate though, along with your other documents? They photocopy everything. Maybe that’s why they didn’t ask you for it? Glad to hear you were spared Tiger’s experience. It still is only one meeting to renounce, there seems to have been some confusion concerning the documents. I don’t believe 4 per week either. FWIW, I was not asked anything about “why,” however, after I had sworn the oath, I did have a discussion with the fellow and he was quite understanding and open about it, without judgement. I have read a few reports here lately, that suggest things may be changing in Toronto. For the longest time, no one was hassled in any way, the staff were incredibly understanding and supportive. I am surprised to hear you were asked…..I have been trying to reach you via email but both addresses are bouncing back. When you have a minute, can you email me? Thanks 🙂
@ Trishia,
Yes, it wasn’t clear to me either in reading that if she got that from the consulate. So, I put in my comment “I’m not clear on who said that. But if a consulate employee is saying that, this is very disturbing.” Also I made note in my comment that it is possible a person “re-activates” their citizenship by doing something after having performed a potentially relinquishing act. But I wanted to warn people that one such act does not necessarily and/or automatically mean that they did and therefore does not prevent a relinquish-based CLN.
@Trishia, I had all my documents ready to be examined, but they only asked for the forms (already completed by me), and my US passport, and Canadian certificate of citizenship. I didn’t proffer the US birth certificate – just waited to be asked and had it if needed. I was afraid they’d offer some kind of objection – as they did at the other location with tiger.
(ps. I’ve emailed you. That one should work – unless my filters are rejecting things. I’ll have to check.)
I would like to report that I renounced US citizenship in Auckland, New Zealand last month. I arrived 5 minutes prior to my appointment and went through security into a totally empty waiting room. I went to booth 1 as instructed and there was a New Zealand lady there who took my paperwork, typed my contact details into her computer and gave me a slip of paper, with the $450 renunciation fee circled. She took my US passport, NZ passport and told me to go pay at another booth. I did this, and was then told to take a seat.
About 10 mins later my name was called from a speaker to go to “Interview Room 1”. I went in, sat down, and behind the glass was the US representative, much younger than me. He had all my paperwork and read out a statement asking if I understood all the things I was to understand such as it being irrevocable etc. At the end, I simply said “I do”. I was a bit surprised as I thought I was the person who had to read out this statement. He then presented all the paperwork under the glass and told me to read it all and sign and he would be back in 5 mins. There were little sticky pointers to where I had to sign, so they are used to doing this.
He came back a few minutes later, gave me another receipt for $450, clearly marked “Renunc of USC” and told me I would receive a CLN, but that it was a “multi-month process”.
That was it, all done in 20 minutes. Despite some previous reports about some negative attitudes in Auckland that was not my experience. No questions asked about reasons, or anything like it. I got the impression that this was business as usual these days and, despite some of my fears, the whole thing was a non-event.
Whatever, I’m out.
@purekiwi,congratulations! The process that you went to sounds very much like how it was for me.
The 450 dollar receipt many times comes on thermal paper immediately copy it then encase it in plastic .. This is your only evidence until u receive until your cln comes which is many months.. Thermal paper fades very quickly. Best of luck
@purekiwi, hoorah! Congratulations and glad to hear it was a good experience. Now it’s just a matter of waiting for that final piece of proof.
@purekiwi
whoooo hoooo “free free at last”
good on you and so simple and fast 🙂