Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart            Part 2

1,560 thoughts on “Consulate Report Directory (Brockers Describe their Consulate Meetings) and CLN Delivery Time Chart            Part 2”

1. Thanks for your kind words, northernstar, but I claim to be none of those things — and far from saintly! They have a word for parents like me: OVER-PROTECTIVE. I’ll accept that.

   But, mine is a fight for ALL LIKE my son.

2. WhatAmi,

   Thank you for your report on your 90 yr old mother’s experience;
   re : ” ……We indicated “No” on the questionnaire that the Calgary consulate sends out. Yet, he asked anyway. I wanted to question why he asked when she indicated “No”, but I didn’t. I wonder now if it’s a trick question, to ferret out people who might have something to hide? Or maybe it’s a poorly-worded question that simply means to ask if you want to make a written statement as opposed to verbal statement?”…

   I am very sorry to hear what was done to your mother at her recent renunciation appointment. That is uncivil, unnecessary, and unwarranted, since a reason is not required. Those renouncing or relinquishing are exercising an established right – and the validity or access to availing oneself of that right is NOT predicated on whether some individual US consular official approves or disapproves of the reason. I am so glad that my aging parent is not here to have to face that or the alternative – remaining a US citizen and being fearful of the consequences and complexities (it would have made life a torment for them – particularly in the last years).

   I had a similar experience, but in a different city. The consular official (who was not pleasant or even neutral in tone and behaviour) asked me for my REASONS at least TWICE in the same session, though I too had clearly marked the box NO to providing a written statement. The official then followed up by also questioning “why now?” – which I interpreted to refer to my choice to become a Canadian citizen only, and not to remain a US citizen or a dual – which is NO business of the US. He also asked twice whether my child/ren were US citizens (luckily don’t qualify). I can’t see what that had to do with my own expatriation. My US passport clearly established my US birthplace, and my form stated the truth – that I had not registered any child with the US. Which I couldn’t anyway. Our Canadian-only child/ren are none of the US’s business – and mine does not qualify as US property, for which I am very very thankful. I too felt overall that the official was trying to intimidate and trick me.

   The consular official seemed to have antagonized the other renunciant as well, an older individual who was intelligent, informed, quiet, civil and pleasant – which was apparent as we chatted while we waited. I could overhear part of what was going on from all the way down the hall in the waiting room, and judging by the raised tone, the interaction wasn’t neutral.

   With me the consular official also used the threat we’ve heard before about how I could be banned from ever entering the US again (Reed Amendment – never enforced so far), and also that I was losing the right to enter and live in the US, as well as to being first in line for US help to be evacuated from danger/disaster zones while abroad (which seemed absurd to be telling someone who has never travelled outside the US and Canada – which he knew very well from the form and from my passport). He also challenged me to answer why my US passport had no stamps in it. How would I know?

   I just had to stick to what I had put on my forms, and repeated as necessary. Thanks to IBS I was clear about the process and prepared. I had to remind myself to keep my eye on the prize, no matter how much I felt provoked by the official’s tone.

   The behaviour and tone of the consular official, and the adversarial flavour of the whole interaction and place (the guards were surly and refused to answer or acknowledge even a relevant question, was very brusquely ordered into a line up outside, place looked like a jail) helped confirm for me that expatriation was my only remedy and that I made the best and only choice available for me – however painful it was to contemplate initially.

3. I meant to post this comment, which have already appeared, on this thread:

   Another example of ASSUMPTIONS and GRANDMAs and OTHER “supposed US Persons / Citizens”
   http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/10/18/happy-anniversary-ambassador-jacobson-thanks-for-introducing-me-to-canada-grandmas/comment-page-2/#comment-822373

   Children born to one US citizen parent outside of the US have the right to US citizenship, but it is not automatic. The parents need to apply for it, and the US citizen parent has to fulfill some conditions, among them having lived in the US a certain number of years. The other parent has to consent to the child holding US citizenship.

   and

   But the kids would also have to spend several formative years residing in the US to both obtain and keep that citizenship. The gold standard is to be born on US soil as the US is the only country to confer automatic (or nearly so) citizenship by virtue of being born in the country, even to illegals. If she was born in the US, no matter how long ago, she has the obligation to file and pay taxes wherever she resides and regardless of other citizenships. If she doesn’t have an SSN, I’m sure the IRS would be happy to help assign her one (though she probably does have one already, especially if she lived in the US as a child and her parents filed taxes using her as a deduction).

   I’ve sure never heard that one: “The other parent has to consent to the child holding US citizenship.”

4. @Calgary411

   Can not your husband not consent? Is he still alive?

5. There is no such thing as the other parent having to consent, northernstar. I realize I don’t communicate effectively. In my comment to which I think you’re referring, I was pointing out another misconception — another assumption about how our children obtain (or not) their US citizenships. For my son, it was automatic.

   My son’s dad who I moved to Canada with in 1969 was also a US citizen (and he spent four years in the US Marines before we came here; we came because Seattle had turned into a one-industry city of destitution and there was work opportunity and his brother and his family here). My son had two US parents, not just me (which some incorrectly think probably because I refer to myself having been a single parent for so many years). His dad and I divorced in 1985 and, tragically, he died of ALS in 2003 after many horrible years of battling that.

   I re-married in 2005, unbelievably to another who claimed US citizenship (and that claim was through his grandparents, not his dad who did not live in the US for the required amount of time before his family immigrated to Saskatchewan from North Dakota). (What was this universe trying to tell me?) His was a CLAIM to US citizenship that he applied for and was granted at the US Consulate in Calgary in 2001. He is now 73 years of age and retired. But, as he is a musician and that is how he earned his living and raised his family, he had very few CPP credits, so little for retirement (not all professional musicians are savvy in their financial planning). He *thought* it would be a good idea to continue his musical career in the USA as he played on into old age and faded into the sunset – so another US citizen was “born”.

   I have renounced. He has renounced. My daughter has renounced. My son cannot. My ex-husband died without knowing any of this — and I can only assume (another assumption!) he would have thought, as I did, that what he was WARNED when he became a Canadian citizen in 1975 he relinquished his US citizenship.

   Just for the record, I am my son’s trustee as the lack of mental capacity he has is especially for financial transactions and all that entails, which would also involve US compliance year after year after year. He does not need a guardian as he can do some things by himself. For a guardian, every one of his life decisions would have to come through me. I guide those decisions, but I do leave him some room for as much independence as he can have. He lives in a supported roommate program household, has responsibilities in that household like simple cooking, helping with grocery shopping, other things that a roommate would do but it is supported — and is a wonderful arrangement that works for all of us. He has gained more independence away from living with and depending on me; he will transition better into his life after I am gone; our family relationship is much more relaxed and fun when we come together and we can really appreciate my son for who he is and the accomplishments he makes. He is able to use public transportation to get to a location each day to be transported with his “crew” to work outdoors at Alberta campgrounds and such in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains. His work is in a very supported environment; their work is valued; he gets a monthly “honorarium” of $115 per month. I, too, am more independent with what I’ve put in place for him — and for us, the rest of his family. It would all be as “happily ever after” as it could be — except for his ENTRAPMENT into US citizenship. He is Canadian!

   My Canadian life has turned into a US soap opera.

6. @calgary411
   wow. You have a really amazing story….Now I understand…

   You should write a book.

7. @WhatAmI,

   Thank you very much for your report. Really sorry (and mad) for your mom that it turned out to be such a disturbing and mean experience.

   I share Calgary411’s confidence that your mom’s renunciation will be approved. The consul and the paragraph in the 4080 are correct that the final decision is made in DC, but DC makes it based on what they get in the consul’s report, so if he didn’t raise any issues with you, that sounds quite positive.

   I think asking to see your mom alone was most likely standard procedure to make sure she wasn’t being influenced. That also happened to someone whose spouse was allowed to accompany them.

   This situation you encountered, at least the latter part of it, sounds quite nasty. Seems doubly so since your mom is 90 to treat her that way. I really do hope she will be able to put it behind her and hopefully the whole thing out of her mind with the holidays coming up and that she gets her CLN soon.

8. @Badger.

   Your experience is quite disturbing on two counts. There’s that question about the reason, which is none of their business, but what’s really bugging me is that he wouldn’t drop it but basically harassing you by asking it over and over. And it sounds like he was nothing but confrontational throughout the entire meeting, which we haven’t heard of occurring since they made Ottawa can their inappropriate antics quite a while ago now. The extent of this guy’s attitude, coupled with your picking up an adversarial flavour in your interaction with other personnel as well, sounds ominously like a systemic problem. What you’re saying relates to something I heard offline recently and I think you’re talking about the same consulate. The two problem consulates in Canada definitely improved in the past year. It sounds like now a new problem consulate has developed here or one has re-emerged.

9. @ Whatami
   I feel so badly for your mother. And it particularly concerns me because my husband will be going to the Calgary consulate in February. He’s a pretty mellow fellow but … well that just concerns me. Do you think Calgary and Vancouver did a consulate staff swap or something? Do you mind me asking how long your mother waited to get the appointment? My husband asked for his appointment in September. A four months delay was longer than we expected.

10. First, I have to thank everyone for the informative content at this website for those needing to learn about the impact of fatca. I have been a diligent reader here for many months. My experience relinquishing this week was easy, and fast, because I was prepared and knowledgeable from all the information here.

    I relinquished in Toronto. Was in the consulate for less than an hour. I arrived from out to town and met a friend who took care of my cellphone and other electronic devices. It turned out they did have a place you could leave cell phones but the security guards were inconsistent, with some letting people in with phones, and others refusing.

    Outside, I went past the long line of people waiting for Visas, to the door and showed the guard my appointment time. I was asked to wait another 10 minutes, then they let me in. Through a metal detector, thorough a door, up a ramp marked for US citizens, told a guard I was here for CLN, they passed me through a waiting room to another guard who directed me upstairs via elevator. There you are directed to a window and I told them I was here to relinquish and showed them my forms. The staff person was business like and neutral. She took my birth certificate, Canadian passport and all the forms, asked a few brief questions and asked me to wait until I could speak to an officer about renouncing. I corrected her and said I was here to relinquish and she looked startled, but nodded.

    After 15 minutes I was called to the window again and told that I qualified for relinquishment , signed some forms, and told my CLN would arrive in 6 months.

    When I turned around to the elevator the security guard said, “So you’re not American no more?”. He said he gets tears in his eyes every time he sees this. And he did have glistening eyes. He said it was hard for him to watch people have to lose their citizenship “because of this new law”.

    There were 6 other people there, all renouncing, all 50+, and none had heard of relinquishing. From my brief discussion with them it sounded like they may not have qualified anyhow as they all used US passports, voted in US elections etc.

    My back story is like many here, Born in US, came to Canada before I was 12 and have never lived there since. Have been a Canadian citizen for 25 years and have no connections to the US other than relatives.
    When I first heard about fatca I almost started the OVDP process but fortunately my spouse ( Canadian) said stop, don’t do it.

    Again, thank you to the many people who contribute here regularly (and bravely!). Your work is appreciated.

11. @globalCitizen
    Congratulations!…Your counsel experience is similar to mine 5 months ago. I am still waiting for my CLN. I relinquished and asked for it backdated to 1993 when I became a Canadian citizen.
    Thanks for telling all here on Brock your experience.
    This website is a real treasure for those who seek true information FATCA and help.

12. globalcitizen,

    Thanks for the report of your Toronto Relinquishment! The reaction of the security guard to all he is witnessing is heart-wrenching as he must think it is all so unbelievable.

    Thanks too for telling us that you gathered from here all the information that you needed to make the decision and confidently go into that Toronto US Consulate. Six other people there the same time as you were, renouncing — that says a lot too.

    My and our congratulations!!

13. I will also add that I did not provide supplementary information on my DS 4079 just facts and would be happy to copy any sections here if that would be helpful to people ( minus my identifying details)

    It is good to remember that in all interactions with government officials they have their checklists to complete and are not interested in getting to know you. Any questions they ask will be focussed on their tasks. With government workers I am polite, quiet and never offer additional information, or chat, or make any kind of personal comments beyond “Thank you for your assistance.” I added this comment because I heard two of other people there to renounce start to nervously chatter about why they were renouncing, and that led to more questions and you could tell they were nervous and intimidated. The staff at Toronto are professional, and I am guessing that because I had everything in order and knew exactly what would happen (thanks Brockers!), my experience was as straightforward as it could get.

    I was the test case for my extended family who are going to start relinquishing in 2014.

14. globalcitizen,

    That is interesting, you being the test case for your extended family, members of whom will start relinquishing in 2014. Thank you for doing that for them and thank you for your good advice to us here regarding not going past “Thank you for your assistance” at US Consulate interviews for expatriation.

    And, for emphasizing once again that you had everything in order and knew what would happen because of what you learned here. The over-used expression applies here: AWESOME!

    … and to Islander too in your advice: do exactly as asked, nothing more, nothing less. Be consistent. Don’t lie!!!, etc. Wise, wise words. Thanks.

15. I haven’t understood yet what is renouncing versus relinquishing?What of both should I do?

16. J.N.,

    When we are discussing the terms here it is that you will be claiming a relinquishment that you previously made. Many are claiming relinquishments from decades ago when they became citizens of other countries. Some are doing the same for more recent citizenship of other countries. A person who is born with “dual citizenship” though must renounce. There is a $450 fee and subsequent compliance requirements for renunciations; not necessarily for relinquishments depending on the date of the relinquishment that would be claimed. (In the definitions, renunciation is actually a form of relinquishment.)

    Page 10 of the Consulate Report discusses this: Renunciation and Relinquishment: What is the Difference? Is there a Difference
    and, http://maplesandbox.ca/2012/renunciation-and-relinquishment-what-are-the-differences-is-there-a-difference/

17. @ J.N.

    There are 6 potentially relinquishing acts in addition to renouncing. Two of the 6 have to do with treason and stuff, so I’ll skip them.

    1. Did you, with the intention of simultaneously terminating your US citizenship, do one of the following: These are subsections from the Immigration and Nationality Act, s. 349(a).

    (1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or

    (2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or

    (3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
    (A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or
    (B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or

    (4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
    (B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, …

    2. Has your behaviour since that date been consistent with that of a Non-US citizen?

    If so, you would apply for a CLN based on this relinquishing act and, in applying for a CLN, you would basically be informing the consulate of it.

    If not, you are still a US citizen and your relinquishing act would be taking the oath of renunciation at the consulate.

    Dept of State’s administrative presumption is that a person wishes to retain US citizenship. So the onus is on the person who is claiming they relinquished it. The determination is made on the balance of probabilities. Obviously it’s best to have a clean-cut case, but no one factor is necessarily determinative.

18. @pacifica777 and@calgary411,thank you.
    I am a citizen of Israel for about 50 years,where I am living since I was 20./
    I also applied for citizenship of Germany(where my parents were from for many generations before WW2 and the Holocaust)and I use my German /Euro passport now for travelling to Europe.
    I don’t remember any”oath”.
    I have made an appointment with my USA Embassy for beginning of January.
    My intention is to no longer be a US person.
    I’ve filled out the form which included questions which pacifica777 quoted above.

19. Globalcitizen –
    Congratulations on your relinquishment. Was this a back-dated CLN you applied for? What was the relinquishing act you declared? Your above entry mentions you were a minor (under 12 years of age) when you came to Canada…is that when you naturalized? Or had you naturalized when you were an adult (assuming you had naturalized at some point). I am curious as I was a minor when I became a Canadian citizen in 1979, and I understand my past-relinquishment most likely will not be considered based on that fact. Could you share a few details about your situation?
    Thank you. – Geri

20. @calgary411

    Your statement above that says … “A person who is born with “dual citizenship” though must renounce.” … has me a little concerned.

    Does this apply if someone signed an oath as part of employment with a government agency? I am hoping to get a backdated CLN based on my past employment with a government agency and the oath that I signed at the beginning of my employment.

21. @myKitty,

    Foreign government employment such as yours is, at this time, the only reportedly successful way for a born-dual to claim a back-dated relinquishment.

22. Mykitty,

    What WhatAmI has stated is, correct, the only way that I also know that a dual can claim a relinquishment. I failed to give that exception.

23. @geri I was a landed immigrant for 19 years and then applied for Canadian citizenship as an adult because I wanted to be able to say I was Canadian, as that is how I felt, and primarily because I wanted to be able to vote in Canada. My relinquishing act was taking Canadian citizenship in 1988. I was able to answer No to all of the questions related to US connections. As in – No I do not vote, file US taxes, travel on US passport, own property, have a residence, have a profession in the US, have family or social ties. I do have some aunts and cousins in the US, but do not consider them a tie to the US.
    I did have a SSN once upon a time did not know what the number was and that was not a problem.

    I was able to answer Yes to all of the questions about my connection to Canada;. As In Yes, I own property, reside, work, travel on Canadian passport, identity as Canadian, am married to a Canadian and our two children have not been registered as US citizens ( I am not eligible to do that as I did not live in the US for 5 consecutive years after the age of 14).

    My answer to Q 17 “Describe in detail the circumstances under which you performed the (expatriating) act” was brief and factual.
    “I voluntarily became a Canadian Citizen with the knowledge and intention of relinquishing my U.S. citizenship on (date). At that time I was not issued a Certificate of Loss of Nationality. I am filing this application to receive a copy of my CLN from the date I became a Canadian citizen.”

    I was told my CLN will be backdated to the date I became Canadian.

    Hope that helps.

24. @WhatAmI and @calgary411

    Thanks for the clarification … just waiting for the long form of my birth certificate to arrive and then I think I’m ready for my appointment.

25. My husband signed a statement that his intention was to relinquish his U.S. citizenship when he became a Canadian citizen (September). It was happily witnessed by the attending Canadian citizenship officer at his citizenship ceremony. He e-mailed a copy of that statement to the U.S. consulate right afterwards with a request for a relinquishing appointment and they sent him form 4079 plus a questionnaire. When they finally assigned him an appointment date in February they did not mention anything about a renunciation oath and a fee, just gave him a list of what documents to bring to his appointment. However, when he goes he will have 450 dollars with him just in case something goes wrong and they make him pay for his freedom. He has his U.S. passport ready to hand in and he has not used it to travel. He hasn’t got a Canadian passport yet — no need for it at this time. All of this of course leaves him wondering what will be the magic date on his CLN when it finally arrives. Things could get messy with that 8854 due date if the CLN ends up staying in a withholding pattern too long.