Banking Issues
Please provide information or ask questions about Banking issues in this comment stream.
I will create sub-topic threads as the situation arises, keeping a copy of the comment that starts a legnthy specific discussion on the Banking Issues thread, so the Banking Issues thread will remain the main source for banking information and dicsusion. But sub-topic threads should help people easily find (or avoid, if it doesn’t interest them) detailed information and conversation on specific matters.
Sub-topic Threads:
Problems with Banks After Renunciation
Sarah,
There are people and resources here who can give you helpful information and suggestions. Many of us have been through similar feelings of anger, fear and anxiety. Don’t despair.
A few thoughts come to my mind. Do you have UK or Irish citizenship? Have you ever worked for the UK or Irish government? The US has self-relinquishing rules such as taking on a foreign citizenship or working for a foreign gov. You may be able to convince a new bank that you are not a US citizen (without a formal US
Certificate of Loss of Nationality). I’m assuming that in Ireland it is impossible to open a new account without disclosing your place of birth.
@Sarah
1. Under no circumstances should you enter the US tax system. Don’t even think of it.
2. Try to open a bank account without revealing your US citizenship. Yes this means lying to your bank. If you have a UK passport that only shows city/town of birth and this name is not obviously American (e.g. Las Vegas) then claim to be born in Britain. There’s probably a Springfield somewhere in Yorkshire.
3. If you cannot successfully conceal your US citizenship, the bank may require that you obtain a US Social Security Number at some point. This may not be a fast process. Alternatively, use this one: 548 83 4718. Yes, I just made that up. If asked, you lost the card but had the number written down at home, etc.
4. It’s Ireland, for god’s sake. The bank probably doesn’t give a feck what you do.
5. You’ve obviously had a difficult year. Don’t add the US government to your list of woes. The IRS is toothless and cannot touch you. If you can’t lie your way past FATCA, let your account be reported and forget about it. If you have serious problems down the road – not allowed to make certain investments because they won’t take US person customers – then you can consider renouncing. Otherwise try not to worry about this, once you learn how to lie it’s very easy to ignore.
I wouldn’t call it lying. It’s protecting yourself fro a bully.
I call it lying because doing that makes me enjoy it even more! But I’ve been at this game for a while now, and feel no anxiety. The first months after discovery can be difficult.
Hi everyone, thanks so much for all your comments. I’m Scottish, so have my British passport (I AM British!!). Encouraging to hear you say not to enter the IRS system. I really don’t want to file – simply because a) it’s wrong b) I have been saving for a small house for a few years and I would probably lose a lot of this. I would renounce, but I’d still have to file AND pay the large fee, so that’s a lose-lose.
I’ve always been honest too, but am seriously considering using the false social security number. Unfortunately Irish driving licence states country of birth. British passport only has the city – this is New York. There is a New York in England it turns out, but it’s only a hamlet, so I could maybe try this, but I’m not sure how believable that would be (I’m not sure I’d be comfortable saying I was born in New York, Jamaica/Singapore/Honduras, etc!).
What makes this so wrong to me is: I can’t understand why the US didn’t provide us with a US social security number a long time ago if they wanted us to pay taxes, and if I’d known that I was meant to pay taxes, I wouldn’t have a lump sum sitting in the bank. I just don’t understand how they’re able to turn round all these years later and suddenly start demanding money!
We’ll see what happens. It really is the most surreal situation. I’m feeling better knowing there are more of us out there, and I’m going to do my best to find a way round this.
Thanks again.
OK With the added information we can offer more for you to think about.
Does the Irish bank absolutely demand a social security number if they know where you were born? Clearly you don’t have one and don’t want to get one.
If a Irish bank sent your information to the IRS it wouldn’t matter. The IRS finished the last tax year with 10 million unprocessed returns. They can’t handle the job. They can’t care about some unknown person in Ireland.
It is perfectly possible and reasonable to renounce and not file anything . Again , they cant deal with the situation Their computers have nothing to work with. There is however that unreasonable fee of $2300. Good luck.
@Sarah
To repeat, you have nothing to worry about. I would not recommend that you enter the US tax system, but if you did, you’d almost certainly owe nothing, not be penalized, and if you’re lucky might earn some or all of the ridiculous $3200 stimulus benefit.
Until fairly recently, US children were not assigned SSNs at registration of birth. The whole edifice is designed for US residents, hence the utter illogic of wanting tax returns from and FATCA reports for US citizens without SSNs. This was never intended to make sense – no consideration made for dual citizens such as yourself.
Here’s what I’d advise:
Your first priority is always to deceive the bank and conceal your citizenship. If you have a proper Scottish accent, lay it on thick and laugh about how you were born in a wee town in Lincolnshire (yes I looked it up) before your parents moved north of the border, and how sad it is that you can’t go work in a pub in the real New York because you’re not an American citizen. The Irish love a good yarn. They’ll say it’s a feckin’ tragedy, so it is, and move on to the next question.
If you successfully fool the bank, stop here. Your worries are at an end.
In the unlikely event that the bank does not believe your story, you have three options: obtain an SSN (which does *not* mean you should begin filing US tax returns) and give them the number; invent a fake number and swear that you lost the card; tell them you don’t have one and it’s really difficult to get one and what are they going to do about it – you could probably stall for years.
No need to consider renouncing unless multiple banks are making your life miserable by refusing to offer services to US-person customers.
@Sarah
There is always the ‘Parent who was a diplomat story.’
Those children born in the US to foreign diplomats are not US citizens.
https://legalservicesincorporated.com/immigration/i-was-born-in-the-united-states-as-the-child-of-a-foreign-diplomatic-officer-do-i-get-u-s-citizenship-at-birth-if-not-how-can-i-become-a-u-s-citizen/#:~:text=In%20short%2C%20no%20%E2%80%94%20a%20child,purposes%20of%20U.S.%20immigration%20law.
I renounced without filing, and don’t intend doing so! Always good advice from Ron!
“There is always the ‘Parent who was a diplomat story.’”
This is an interesting one, I would love to see how this plays out. Now how on earth do you prove this to a bank? Chances are they would have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
Other than that I am with Ron all the way, right down to making up an SSN if it helps.
@Mike
I believe someone on Brock successfully claimed that in the past. You could just show them the State dept rules and insist they take you word for it. Your parents job was top secret…..
However I like the idea of the IRS having to waste their time shuffling all these fake SS numbers and for no purposeful gain.
Regarding diplomatic status, Keith Redmond helped someone do this in Europe (Sweden possibly?) some years ago. In this case it was quite legitimate. The bank wouldn’t believe the customer but they produced a copy of the Diplomatic List for the year in question, found the name shown as a posting to the US, and that settled it.
I remember also a case on a Canadian forum where someone had been born on a US naval base while his father was seconded for a year. In this case there was no diplomatic status, so he really was a US citizen, but we suggested that he show the bank a picture of his father in an officer’s uniform and claim that he was serving as a “military attaché” and therefore his children were not entitled to US citizenship. No idea if that was ultimately successful.
Sarah, one other idea for the bank account, your most pressing matter:
Does your mother have a bank account? If so and she is still able to do so, could she add you as the co-holder on her account, so it becomes a joint account? You may not need ID with birthplace, or if you have to give it, I agree with Portland that being fatca’d will not put you in the IRS’s bulls’eye.
Similarly, if you have or are planning to get power of attorney, that document may be all you need to be a joint person on her account.
Your shock and stress are familiar to Brockers. Ask any question, learn before acting. Definitely stay clear of the US tax system. You have time to decide what to do about your US citizenship, even more so now with the slowdowns and backlog. Caring for an ailing parent is its own intense endeavour.
Just to give a little feedback to you all. Thank you for all your comments and advice. I went to a very dark place when all this happened, but I managed to renounce last month and now have my bank accounts unblocked. (Yes, I have renounced and not got my SSN or filed.) Having bought my freedom, I’m a happy person once again. It has cost me a lot of money (renunciation fee, solicitor to sort out my mother’s affairs, inability to move out of my current situation and get a job, etc) but not nearly as much as I think it would have cost had I gone down the SSN/filing route: I spoke to some others in the embassy who were also renouncing but had already gone down the route of getting their SSN and filing and it had cost them a lot of money in tax lawyers, as well as a lot of time and effort trying to prove that they hadn’t lived in the US. So once again, thank you for the support and the comments
Sarah. So happy that it has finally worked out for you. Another victory for IBS. Another example of not filing anything as the best choice for many of us.
It is a bit odd when you overhear others at the consulate who’ve either paid for full tax compliance, or hired lawyers at great expense, or renounced despite being born outside the US when it may not have been necessary. Oh well, too late for them.
“as well as a lot of time and effort trying to prove that they hadn’t lived in the US”
Why on earth would they have done that?
Isn’t there some sort of special renunciation/tax regime for people that can prove they have no real connection to the USA? I’m sure there is, never really looked into it though.
Whether or not the person should have bothered with it is another issue, unfortunately we are not all educated by the IBS but by blasted lawyers and accountants.
@ Sarah,
Really glad to hear your news! I remember that you were suddenly thrust into a very bad FATCA situation with your banking and at a time whilst you were already dealing with serious and emotionally draining matters in your life. So glad you hung in – I’m so happy your renunciation is done and I wish you all the best!
@ Mike,
The renunciation process with Dept of State would be the same.
With IRS, the only thing I can think of off-hand is that a person-born-with-dual-citizenship, who would otherwise be required to pay the exit tax, may be exempt from it. IMO, they (and others with no financial connection to the US) would do better to renounce and just avoid filing altogether.
@Mike
You might be thinking of a strange IRS program that allows someone who has renounced (or plans to renounce) to come into compliance and do Form 8854 with a few “benefits” if they have never filed US tax returns in the past: it’s not necessary to have a Social Security Number, and up to $25,000 in taxes owing will be waived.
Needless to say, if you have already figured out that you can renounce without filing anything, what’s the point of doing this? I expect it’s not been terribly popular.
Otherwise no, there isn’t any sort of special status for those who have “have no real connection to the USA” – it’s the same stupid law. But those with no connection have a very easy time ignoring the IRS, as we know.
I think this is the programme referred to.
https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/relief-procedures-for-certain-former-citizens
As RH says why anyone would bother is beyond me.
Yup, that’s the one.
“As RH says why anyone would bother is beyond me.”
Because they are badly advised by people with a vested interest in “helping” them though many people simply have to do what they believe is the right thing, they are just naturally compliant.
Sadly.
Much as I am reflexively wary of any “programs” offered by the IRS, this one seems written for persons like my children, born in Canada, registered as USCs (I know), never lived in US and do file there. If they choose to expatriate one day, they may not be in the covered category but it f could happen. We’ve had many opinions on Brock about how much compliance is “best”, and I probably won’t be alive to see what they do, but this is one option.
@Duchesse
Assuming that you are refering to the “relief procedures for certain former citizens” linked to above, this only open to US person who have never filed in the past. If your children have been filing (you wrote “never lived in the US and do file there”) then they are not eligible. If you meant to say that they don’t file, then the program is an option for them.
You are aware of the range of opinions here so I needn’t go into detail, but my view is pretty clear: dual citizen children born outside the US can completely ignore everything, provided they don’t disclose their US citizenship to financial institutions – there is no need to renounce. (This is what my own child has been advised to do, even though their birth was registered at a consulate.) If your children have been filing, they can (1) continue filing forever, (2) stop completely and go dark, (3) renounce and go through the full tax exit procedure, or (4) renounce and do nothing further. The best course of action depends on their US exposure and comfort level with ignoring US law.