101 thoughts on “Coalition Supports RBT – Letter to Ways & Means & Senate Finance Committee”
“@plaxy @ nononymous
Instead of dumb assing someone over who was president during 1913 ,wouldn’t be better to correct him instead. The 16th amendment was initiated during Taft’s term and fully ratified during Woodrow Wilson’s term in 1913.”
Scuse me? How have I dumb-assed anyone? I’m not in charge of information on who did whatever with the US 16th constitutional amendment? I just pointed out that as far as I could recall, no US president was called Harold Wilson.
@plaxy
” Speaking as a US-born individual who has resided outside the US for decades and decades without ever filing a 1040, I can honestly say, hand on heart, I never felt like a slave and the US never treated me like a slave.”
I am like you here. But you are wrong in one respect ,you better rephrase that last phrase to :
Since the US was never ABLE to treat me like a slave, I therefore never felt like a slave “.
What is this, Ticking Off Plaxy Day?
In what way did the US try and fail to treat me like a slave?
The IRS contacted me just once after I left America: they sent me a refund. After that, not a word. I didn’t file, and they didn’t ask me to file.
And that was normal, and apparently still is.
What did the US do to you that made you feel like a slave?
@plaxy
The real expression should have been sarcasm which sometimes borders on ridicule.Enough said.
“The real expression should have been sarcasm which sometimes borders on ridicule.”
What real expression? What do you mean?
No explanation? Would that qualify as you dumb-assing me?
@ plaxy
Why so defensive ? Please reread what I wrote. You initially wrote that you are not a slave and the US never enslaved you ,and all in the same breath. My response was that you never felt like a slave because the US was never able to enslave you.
I’m like you here and, unlike many who feel the mental chains of enslavement.
I’m not feeling defensive, but I’m definitely feeling pissed off. There’s a significant difference between what I said:
“Speaking as a US-born individual who has resided outside the US for decades and decades without ever filing a 1040, I can honestly say, hand on heart, I never felt like a slave and the US never treated me like a slave.”
and what you want me to have said:
“that you never felt like a slave because the US was never able to enslave you.”
The point is, the US never tried to “enslave” me. The US never had any interest in enslaving me, or any reason to want to enslave me. The fear is unnecessary.
Better to speak for yourself, rather than trying to put words in the mouths of others.
and what you want me to have said.
Redundant final line. Sigh.
“Worth bearing in mind that the IRS has no power to tax, fine or penalise citizens of other countries who don’t reside in the US and aren’t filing US tax returns.”
It does have power, it just hasn’t used the power. As far as we know, the IRS has only used its power against people who try to be honest and file.
Also the IRS can’t obtain collection assistance from countries where a person’s assets and citizenship are both located in the same non-US country.
“Who wrote Fatca”
Obama.
“with all it’s parallel reporting instruments”
Both parties.
“FBAR”
Nixon.
Does anyone think the Bull Moose Party would have been less full of it?
“The real expression should have been sarcasm which sometimes borders on ridicule.”
‘What real expression? What do you mean?’
Either something that doesn’t involve the square root of a negative number, or something that doesn’t involve thinking the US government will unfriend Eritrea in the diaspora taxation business.
“It does have power, it just hasn’t used the power. As far as we know, the IRS has only used its power against people who try to be honest and file.”
Scaring people into handing over their money isn’t the same thing as having the power to make them pay against their will.
@plaxy
“The point is, the US never tried to “enslave” me. The US never had any interest in enslaving me, or any reason to want to enslave me. The fear is unnecessary.”
My apologies for putting words in your mouth and congratulations for receiving a refund. Of course, that must mean that the USG has no interest in collecting taxes but only handing out refunds. That leaves one question . If you were getting refunds,why stop filing ?
By the way, when I left the USA , I didn’ ask for any tax refund and stopped filing altogether. No fears,no qualms. May not be the case for others,however
If I got you pissed off , so be it, but I wont lose sleep over it.
“If you were getting refunds,why stop filing ?”
Because I no longer lived there, of course. I left. I eventually started working in the country where I was now living. Tax was withheld, and I got what was left. Easy peasy.
“By the way, when I left the USA , I didn’ ask for any tax refund and stopped filing altogether.”
I didn’t ask for a refund either. I didn’t even know a refund was due.
The refund is not the point. The point is, USCs who leave America don’t need to hide, or live in fear of the IRS. If you (generic “you”) don’t have US-source income, you don’t have a US tax problem.
That’s why so many of us never knew CBT existed; and that’s presumably why most USCs who don’t live in America, don’t file US tax returns.
Correction.
I said:
“If you (generic “you”) don’t have US-source income, you don’t have a US tax problem.”
I should have said, if you don’t have US-source income, and don’t file US tax returns, you don’t have a US tax problem.
If you file a US return and claim US tax benefits (e.g. FEIE, FTCs, asking for your foreign corporation to be taxed like a US corporation or as a pass-through entity, etc) – then you may find you’ve got a US tax problem.
Of course, I wasn’t aware of any of this back when I left America. I was never told to file US tax returns, so I didn’t.
ND:
“As far as we know, the IRS has only used its power against people who … file.”
That’s because filing the return is like signing a contract: you’re accepting the deal.
If you don’t want the deal, don’t sign the jurat.
Plaxy: I stopped filing about 4 years after leaving the US in 1997. The reason was that I was doing the taxes myself and one year I started to earn more than the FEIE and thus would have had to do the FTC. But to do that, I had to know my exact Belgian tax. Which was only known much later than any US filing deadline. It was a dead end and it just got buried in my paperwork.
Naturally I should have gone on not filing, but, before being fully informed, I started to file again from 2014 when I got “FATCA’d” by Deutsche Bank. At least I didn’t attempt to explain or anything, I just started sending returns spontaneously, and of course nobody ever asked any questions.
Of course nowadays, as a result of spending way too much time here, I’m much more comfortable about the situation. I feed the IRS sanitized and estimated data (since the real data is known about 6 months too late). They seem quite happy digesting this, and have even sent me checks from time to time, which pay for my tax preparer.
In the end it’s all quite absurd, and useless to everyone (except for my tax preparer). I’ve accumulated more than $150K in foreign tax credits, according to an annex the preparer sends the IRS and me. I have no idea what that means, except I’m paying a heck of a lof more taxes where I live than I would in the US.
The only thing is that I would be at some point in the position of giving a bank my US SSN. But of course nobody knows if that bank data is reported and then forwarded to the IRS, nor what they do with it. It’s also now pretty obvious that they don’t have the will or means to pick up on an FBAR with, say, a few tens of thousands of euros belonging to someone living in Europe and spend a fortune trying to prosecute and collect a fine.
With the benefit of hindsight, it seems to me that you are absolutely right: I could very well have continued to ignore the situation completely, at most giving banks my US SSN and not worrying about it. In fact it’s probably not too late to stop filing again 🙂
Fred (B):
“The only thing is that I would be at some point in the position of giving a bank my US SSN. But of course nobody knows if that bank data is reported and then forwarded to the IRS, nor what they do with it.”
Indeed, we don’t have much of a clue as to what the IRS is doing, or is allowed to do, with the FATCA data streams.
But I don’t see how having a USC’s SS number would change anything. The way FATCA/IGA was sprung on the world did look very much like a witch hunt, and unfortunately the IRS was all too ready to steer shocked USCs into “amnesty” corrals, if they came forward trying to do what they were being led to believe was the “right” thing.
Now that years have gone by with no witch-burnings, it’s become pretty clear (IMO) that FATCA is more like a global John Doe warrant than a witch hunt: they order the banks to send reports on all USCs in order to get courtworthy information on taxpayers who are suspected of tax crime, or bankers who might be facilitating tax crime. The recent “first FATCA conviction” seems to bear this out.
“it’s probably not too late to stop filing again ”
Indeed; though it’s also a reasonable option (I would say) to keep filing in order to make use of those tax breaks. A lot of US-resident Americans seem to retire abroad to countries with treaty provisions that allow them to pay little or no tax on their US retirement plans. 🙂 (Roth, is it?)
@Fred
“In fact it’s probably not too late to stop filing again”
Except if you are keeping your options open and at some point you go back to live there, they could ask where the hell you have been for the last x number of years and of course you are then present for easy pickings.
@Plaxy
“A lot of US-resident Americans seem to retire abroad to countries with treaty provisions that allow them to pay little or no tax on their US retirement plans. 🙂 (Roth, is it?)”
Unless of course TTFI passes and those treaties are nullified.
Heidi – I’ve seen no reports of anyone being questioned about taxes on entering the US, or resuming filing after having stopped.
If the US seriously wanted to try to persecute returning USCs, it could surely make more of an effort than it does.
“Unless of course TTFI passes and those treaties are nullified.”
Indeed, if the treaty provisions were to be changed, for whatever policy reason, the US pension could become subject to tax in the retirement country. Treaty-shopping requires careful attention to the tax news.
@plaxy
A US pension is taxable in retirement country, that’s what the treaties are for.
I know of a US phsician who did a 1 yr stint abroad and didn’t file. They received an IRS letter asking why that return wasn’t filed.
“@plaxy @ nononymous
Instead of dumb assing someone over who was president during 1913 ,wouldn’t be better to correct him instead. The 16th amendment was initiated during Taft’s term and fully ratified during Woodrow Wilson’s term in 1913.”
Scuse me? How have I dumb-assed anyone? I’m not in charge of information on who did whatever with the US 16th constitutional amendment? I just pointed out that as far as I could recall, no US president was called Harold Wilson.
@plaxy
” Speaking as a US-born individual who has resided outside the US for decades and decades without ever filing a 1040, I can honestly say, hand on heart, I never felt like a slave and the US never treated me like a slave.”
I am like you here. But you are wrong in one respect ,you better rephrase that last phrase to :
Since the US was never ABLE to treat me like a slave, I therefore never felt like a slave “.
What is this, Ticking Off Plaxy Day?
In what way did the US try and fail to treat me like a slave?
The IRS contacted me just once after I left America: they sent me a refund. After that, not a word. I didn’t file, and they didn’t ask me to file.
And that was normal, and apparently still is.
What did the US do to you that made you feel like a slave?
@plaxy
The real expression should have been sarcasm which sometimes borders on ridicule.Enough said.
“The real expression should have been sarcasm which sometimes borders on ridicule.”
What real expression? What do you mean?
No explanation? Would that qualify as you dumb-assing me?
@ plaxy
Why so defensive ? Please reread what I wrote. You initially wrote that you are not a slave and the US never enslaved you ,and all in the same breath. My response was that you never felt like a slave because the US was never able to enslave you.
I’m like you here and, unlike many who feel the mental chains of enslavement.
I’m not feeling defensive, but I’m definitely feeling pissed off. There’s a significant difference between what I said:
“Speaking as a US-born individual who has resided outside the US for decades and decades without ever filing a 1040, I can honestly say, hand on heart, I never felt like a slave and the US never treated me like a slave.”
and what you want me to have said:
“that you never felt like a slave because the US was never able to enslave you.”
The point is, the US never tried to “enslave” me. The US never had any interest in enslaving me, or any reason to want to enslave me. The fear is unnecessary.
Better to speak for yourself, rather than trying to put words in the mouths of others.
and what you want me to have said.
Redundant final line. Sigh.
“Worth bearing in mind that the IRS has no power to tax, fine or penalise citizens of other countries who don’t reside in the US and aren’t filing US tax returns.”
It does have power, it just hasn’t used the power. As far as we know, the IRS has only used its power against people who try to be honest and file.
Also the IRS can’t obtain collection assistance from countries where a person’s assets and citizenship are both located in the same non-US country.
“Who wrote Fatca”
Obama.
“with all it’s parallel reporting instruments”
Both parties.
“FBAR”
Nixon.
Does anyone think the Bull Moose Party would have been less full of it?
“The real expression should have been sarcasm which sometimes borders on ridicule.”
‘What real expression? What do you mean?’
Either something that doesn’t involve the square root of a negative number, or something that doesn’t involve thinking the US government will unfriend Eritrea in the diaspora taxation business.
“It does have power, it just hasn’t used the power. As far as we know, the IRS has only used its power against people who try to be honest and file.”
Scaring people into handing over their money isn’t the same thing as having the power to make them pay against their will.
@plaxy
“The point is, the US never tried to “enslave” me. The US never had any interest in enslaving me, or any reason to want to enslave me. The fear is unnecessary.”
My apologies for putting words in your mouth and congratulations for receiving a refund. Of course, that must mean that the USG has no interest in collecting taxes but only handing out refunds. That leaves one question . If you were getting refunds,why stop filing ?
By the way, when I left the USA , I didn’ ask for any tax refund and stopped filing altogether. No fears,no qualms. May not be the case for others,however
If I got you pissed off , so be it, but I wont lose sleep over it.
“If you were getting refunds,why stop filing ?”
Because I no longer lived there, of course. I left. I eventually started working in the country where I was now living. Tax was withheld, and I got what was left. Easy peasy.
“By the way, when I left the USA , I didn’ ask for any tax refund and stopped filing altogether.”
I didn’t ask for a refund either. I didn’t even know a refund was due.
The refund is not the point. The point is, USCs who leave America don’t need to hide, or live in fear of the IRS. If you (generic “you”) don’t have US-source income, you don’t have a US tax problem.
That’s why so many of us never knew CBT existed; and that’s presumably why most USCs who don’t live in America, don’t file US tax returns.
Correction.
I said:
“If you (generic “you”) don’t have US-source income, you don’t have a US tax problem.”
I should have said, if you don’t have US-source income, and don’t file US tax returns, you don’t have a US tax problem.
If you file a US return and claim US tax benefits (e.g. FEIE, FTCs, asking for your foreign corporation to be taxed like a US corporation or as a pass-through entity, etc) – then you may find you’ve got a US tax problem.
Of course, I wasn’t aware of any of this back when I left America. I was never told to file US tax returns, so I didn’t.
ND:
“As far as we know, the IRS has only used its power against people who … file.”
That’s because filing the return is like signing a contract: you’re accepting the deal.
If you don’t want the deal, don’t sign the jurat.
Plaxy: I stopped filing about 4 years after leaving the US in 1997. The reason was that I was doing the taxes myself and one year I started to earn more than the FEIE and thus would have had to do the FTC. But to do that, I had to know my exact Belgian tax. Which was only known much later than any US filing deadline. It was a dead end and it just got buried in my paperwork.
Naturally I should have gone on not filing, but, before being fully informed, I started to file again from 2014 when I got “FATCA’d” by Deutsche Bank. At least I didn’t attempt to explain or anything, I just started sending returns spontaneously, and of course nobody ever asked any questions.
Of course nowadays, as a result of spending way too much time here, I’m much more comfortable about the situation. I feed the IRS sanitized and estimated data (since the real data is known about 6 months too late). They seem quite happy digesting this, and have even sent me checks from time to time, which pay for my tax preparer.
In the end it’s all quite absurd, and useless to everyone (except for my tax preparer). I’ve accumulated more than $150K in foreign tax credits, according to an annex the preparer sends the IRS and me. I have no idea what that means, except I’m paying a heck of a lof more taxes where I live than I would in the US.
The only thing is that I would be at some point in the position of giving a bank my US SSN. But of course nobody knows if that bank data is reported and then forwarded to the IRS, nor what they do with it. It’s also now pretty obvious that they don’t have the will or means to pick up on an FBAR with, say, a few tens of thousands of euros belonging to someone living in Europe and spend a fortune trying to prosecute and collect a fine.
With the benefit of hindsight, it seems to me that you are absolutely right: I could very well have continued to ignore the situation completely, at most giving banks my US SSN and not worrying about it. In fact it’s probably not too late to stop filing again 🙂
Fred (B):
“The only thing is that I would be at some point in the position of giving a bank my US SSN. But of course nobody knows if that bank data is reported and then forwarded to the IRS, nor what they do with it.”
Indeed, we don’t have much of a clue as to what the IRS is doing, or is allowed to do, with the FATCA data streams.
But I don’t see how having a USC’s SS number would change anything. The way FATCA/IGA was sprung on the world did look very much like a witch hunt, and unfortunately the IRS was all too ready to steer shocked USCs into “amnesty” corrals, if they came forward trying to do what they were being led to believe was the “right” thing.
Now that years have gone by with no witch-burnings, it’s become pretty clear (IMO) that FATCA is more like a global John Doe warrant than a witch hunt: they order the banks to send reports on all USCs in order to get courtworthy information on taxpayers who are suspected of tax crime, or bankers who might be facilitating tax crime. The recent “first FATCA conviction” seems to bear this out.
“it’s probably not too late to stop filing again ”
Indeed; though it’s also a reasonable option (I would say) to keep filing in order to make use of those tax breaks. A lot of US-resident Americans seem to retire abroad to countries with treaty provisions that allow them to pay little or no tax on their US retirement plans. 🙂 (Roth, is it?)
@Fred
“In fact it’s probably not too late to stop filing again”
Except if you are keeping your options open and at some point you go back to live there, they could ask where the hell you have been for the last x number of years and of course you are then present for easy pickings.
@Plaxy
“A lot of US-resident Americans seem to retire abroad to countries with treaty provisions that allow them to pay little or no tax on their US retirement plans. 🙂 (Roth, is it?)”
Unless of course TTFI passes and those treaties are nullified.
Heidi – I’ve seen no reports of anyone being questioned about taxes on entering the US, or resuming filing after having stopped.
If the US seriously wanted to try to persecute returning USCs, it could surely make more of an effort than it does.
“Unless of course TTFI passes and those treaties are nullified.”
Indeed, if the treaty provisions were to be changed, for whatever policy reason, the US pension could become subject to tax in the retirement country. Treaty-shopping requires careful attention to the tax news.
@plaxy
A US pension is taxable in retirement country, that’s what the treaties are for.
I know of a US phsician who did a 1 yr stint abroad and didn’t file. They received an IRS letter asking why that return wasn’t filed.