128 thoughts on “Ending U.S. Citizenship-Based Taxation”
TTFI will be a first admission that U.S. taxing residents of other countries is unjust. It is hoped that it would be a first step of several.
A stand alone bill in Congress to help reverse some of the over-regulation of USP overseas. Imagine that. It will help bring focus on the range of issues involved.
Replying to @USAccidental @RepHolding and 3 others
Sympathetic 2 Accidental Americans got screwed by #FATCA. #TTFI is neither a FATCA repeal nor a renunciation amnesty w/o fees bill. It’s a bill 2 end #CBT & double taxation 4 expats who want 2 save their citizenships. Best we can do 4 AA is 3-yr compliance w/o FATCA/#FBAR penalty
This is very welcomed progress. As a stand-alone bill, can someone walk us through the legislative process? It would be good to be aware of potential barriers so that we may work to prevent them.
What if someone stood up and questioned the common sense behind dragging a civil war era law beyond that war?
Why should any country be allowed to “retro-actively” implement their own law, and attempt to apply it in a future setting to other nation states?? BS!
To me, ANY law which was trotted out in the midst of the civil war already denotes, NO USA.
Why should the world be held to a law that only the USA decided to have?
“Why should the world be held to a law that only the USA decided to have?”
Because the US insists on doing things the hard way and unfortunately they have the clout to impose it on the rest of the world. Its in their genes (although personally I don’t seem to have inherited that particular gene). That’s why I found it necessary to leave the US for good early in my life.
You only have to look at the number of confederate flags that are still on display down there to realize they are still fighting that war more than a century and a half after the South surrendered.
Vote requires a simple majority unless Dems filibuster (likely) in which case requires 60 votes. Call Dems for support.
Those confederate flags are about making American great “again”, which to them is prior to the south’s defeat.
@Dave
But can it go directly to a vote? You know how when looking at the status of bills and such and it will reference going to committee and so on? I dont know the process either….
I watched the whole video. I’m glad people are doing constructive things. Sadly, on a selfish level though, I see nothing in this that is relevant to my household.
Hopefully in future iterations…..
I’m not certain it entirely works for me either, but I’ve emailed the congresswoman of my last USA address asking her to support it. I think we need to start somewhere, and perhaps more reform can then follow.
“What if someone stood up and questioned the common sense behind dragging a civil war era law beyond that war?”
Then the retort would be that no one should expect the Expatriation Act of 1868 to be obeyed either. The matter of whether it should be obeyed is separate from the fact that it isn’t being obeyed.
‘Why should any country be allowed to “retro-actively” implement their own law’
That won’t help very much. Somehow US courts have ruled that the constitutional prohibition against ex post facto laws only applies to criminal laws not civil laws. We can only ask why Canada or other countries cooperate.
If Accidentals were addressed such as with an amnesty with no forms/fees etc, that would be an outright admission that the current system of taxing residents in other countries is wrong. While Solomon Yue gives a good talk about the unfairness of it all, I hope that the impression of TTFI is not just alignment with TTFC, with tax “relief” given for those overseas as if the U.S. is in the “right” to tax them, but that this bill just gives them a little relief.
I have for a long time viewed Accidentals as the “Trojan Horse” in all this to really break it all up because: they have the least/no ties to the U.S.; the double tax claim is un-American and in contradiction to the founding principles of America, it involves numerous violations of the U.S. Constitution, and because it fails accepted norms on “the justification of taxation.”
The difference is that the Expatriation Act of 1868 was a very well thought out and considered law which recognized inherent autonomy as free people to not be considered “owned” by ny gov’t or country. I’m sure it would have been talked through and debated at the time.
The law enacted during the civil war was decided in the midst of chaos with a country about to split apart. You might even say that there was NO actual unified USA at the time it was introduced. It also had more to do with losing a man’s fighting body than citizenship. Yet that’s the one the US hangs onto.
Prof. Christians said herself that she believes the fee for FATCA renunciation wouldn’t hold up in court if someone were to fight it.
Remember when 1000s of letters were given to congress and written by expats to explain their woes- and it all fell on deaf ears? I am just wondering if the people who vote on this are so tired of all the nonsense going on at the White House, that they are willing to finally open their eyes and see the reality of CBT and how it harms people! Its about being fed up with all the ugliness going on in Washington. I certainly have my fingers crossed that common sense returns to politics.
Perhaps some justice for Accidentals will come with ADCS legal success.
JC, I cannot see how. A successful lawsuit means no more protection through IGA. Currently accidentals and other US persons can hide. With IGA gone they could be in a more vulnerable position. A win might help to bring down FATCA eventually but is hard to imagine any short term gain for affected Canadians including accidentals. Lack of injury may make winning lawsuit a struggle just as it did with American suit. Too bad accidentals are not following Fabien Lehagre’ footsteps to have own Accidrntal Americans association branch. Would be good to capitalize on the innocent accidental situation from a political perspective, not limit fight to a lawsuit. French have FATCA lawsuit also but are not putting all eggs in one basket.
@Jules, apologies, yet I 100% disagree with you. A legal fight is the right way to achieve change for Accidentals. Only through legal victory may there be enduring change. You appear to be assuming that there is no backing from within the US to repeal FATCA; and that there are no U.S. constitutional issues with FATCA.
The gain an ADCS legal victory will be no less than elevated highlight as to the unjust extraterritorial U.S. double taxation that lax Canadian “agreements” have allowed (much more so than in the pretrial), in violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights among other Canadian laws; and it would force a Canadian government political reckoning with remedy of FATCA IGA and Tax Treaty where Canadian Government sovereignty is infringed.
Canada could say to the U.S.: that the FATCA IGA is unfair for Canada in that the U.S. has not provided reciprocal data as promised, the U.S. has not paid for Canadian implementation costs for what has turned out to be a one-way arrangement, and that it violates the Canadian Charter of Rights; and thus Canada will suspend provision of FATCA IGA information until the U.S. provides reciprocal data first, pays for Canadian bank implementation costs if the U.S. will not provide reciprocal data by a certain deadline, and first modifies the tax treaty and FATCA IGA with full respect to Canadian sovereignty and the Canadian Charter of Rights.
Finally I’ve had time to watch the entire video. I am grateful for the efforts of all three gentlemen and I support the TTFI effort on behalf of all those it may help. As for me, personally, every indication is that I will have to wait for Tax Reform 3.0. I can only hope that 2.0 will be a paving of the way for its development.
Not quite good enough. For an Accidental American who has never considered himself as a US citizen and of course never filed, and likely didn’t even know about the requirement until recent years, having to be tax compliant for three years to qualify for TTFI such that they can then continue to ignore the US tax system is ludicrous and makes no sense at all.
I suppose you could split these people into two groups: those who also want to shed the US citizenship, and those who want to keep it. I suppose the 3-year compliance for those who want to keep it could be justified, but not for those who don’t.
It is all talk. Everyone knows that nothing will be done. It is the most corrupt country in the world. Indeed the evil empire
Instead of solving this mess, both Congress and Treasury not only ignore it, but actually create further mess and difficulties with new laws, compliance regulations and IRS. They hold the whole world hostage. “Fair share” – what is my fair share of I do not live there and do not even visit???? Yet, they expect me to file and pay. And if I do not , they penalise and in prison people… fair share??? How can all this be constitutional at all???
All of us here share your frustration, Roger.
Any updates? Anyone know when this bill is going to be voted on?
Rick, agree with your comment. Regarding the two groups you refer to, no surprise that RO would really only care about those who wish to retain US citizenship thus the focus on helping them with TTFI. Why would they or any other American political group care about those who do not want U S citizenship? For those non-compliant US persons who would like not to be, perhaps focus on fighting from perspective of being not American. Work to pressure their own local governments. Seems not much interest forming an AA association in Canada but maybe a broader group would get more support. An organized group of Canadians rejecting US citizenship (long term expats and accidentals)?
The Solomon’s ttfi is ridiculous,inappropriate , and downright insulting to those who left their roots and planted their lives elsewhere with no intent of going back. I do hope that John Richardson et al realize this ,though his efforts are appreciated.
I’m sure John et al are well aware that accidentals and those who left the US behind and out of their lives decades ago are still in a bind. My guess is that Solomon will lose interest as soon as TTFI is achieved but I really believe John will continue the good fight.
TTFI will be a first admission that U.S. taxing residents of other countries is unjust. It is hoped that it would be a first step of several.
A stand alone bill in Congress to help reverse some of the over-regulation of USP overseas. Imagine that. It will help bring focus on the range of issues involved.
Some tweets about Accidentals:
From @USAccidental
@RepHolding @GroverNorquist @SolomonYue @Keith__REDMOND
How will so called #AccidentalAmericans (as recognised by @YourVoiceAtIRS Advocate) be treated under the #TTFI bill?
#HumanRights #FATCA #RepealFATCA #EndCitizenshipBasedTaxation
https://twitter.com/USAccidental/status/1029635583709257728
From Solomon Yue:
Replying to @USAccidental @RepHolding and 3 others
Sympathetic 2 Accidental Americans got screwed by #FATCA. #TTFI is neither a FATCA repeal nor a renunciation amnesty w/o fees bill. It’s a bill 2 end #CBT & double taxation 4 expats who want 2 save their citizenships. Best we can do 4 AA is 3-yr compliance w/o FATCA/#FBAR penalty
https://twitter.com/SolomonYue/status/1029684129258987520
This is very welcomed progress. As a stand-alone bill, can someone walk us through the legislative process? It would be good to be aware of potential barriers so that we may work to prevent them.
What if someone stood up and questioned the common sense behind dragging a civil war era law beyond that war?
Why should any country be allowed to “retro-actively” implement their own law, and attempt to apply it in a future setting to other nation states?? BS!
To me, ANY law which was trotted out in the midst of the civil war already denotes, NO USA.
Why should the world be held to a law that only the USA decided to have?
“Why should the world be held to a law that only the USA decided to have?”
Because the US insists on doing things the hard way and unfortunately they have the clout to impose it on the rest of the world. Its in their genes (although personally I don’t seem to have inherited that particular gene). That’s why I found it necessary to leave the US for good early in my life.
You only have to look at the number of confederate flags that are still on display down there to realize they are still fighting that war more than a century and a half after the South surrendered.
Vote requires a simple majority unless Dems filibuster (likely) in which case requires 60 votes. Call Dems for support.
Those confederate flags are about making American great “again”, which to them is prior to the south’s defeat.
@Dave
But can it go directly to a vote? You know how when looking at the status of bills and such and it will reference going to committee and so on? I dont know the process either….
I watched the whole video. I’m glad people are doing constructive things. Sadly, on a selfish level though, I see nothing in this that is relevant to my household.
Hopefully in future iterations…..
I’m not certain it entirely works for me either, but I’ve emailed the congresswoman of my last USA address asking her to support it. I think we need to start somewhere, and perhaps more reform can then follow.
“What if someone stood up and questioned the common sense behind dragging a civil war era law beyond that war?”
Then the retort would be that no one should expect the Expatriation Act of 1868 to be obeyed either. The matter of whether it should be obeyed is separate from the fact that it isn’t being obeyed.
‘Why should any country be allowed to “retro-actively” implement their own law’
That won’t help very much. Somehow US courts have ruled that the constitutional prohibition against ex post facto laws only applies to criminal laws not civil laws. We can only ask why Canada or other countries cooperate.
If Accidentals were addressed such as with an amnesty with no forms/fees etc, that would be an outright admission that the current system of taxing residents in other countries is wrong. While Solomon Yue gives a good talk about the unfairness of it all, I hope that the impression of TTFI is not just alignment with TTFC, with tax “relief” given for those overseas as if the U.S. is in the “right” to tax them, but that this bill just gives them a little relief.
I have for a long time viewed Accidentals as the “Trojan Horse” in all this to really break it all up because: they have the least/no ties to the U.S.; the double tax claim is un-American and in contradiction to the founding principles of America, it involves numerous violations of the U.S. Constitution, and because it fails accepted norms on “the justification of taxation.”
The difference is that the Expatriation Act of 1868 was a very well thought out and considered law which recognized inherent autonomy as free people to not be considered “owned” by ny gov’t or country. I’m sure it would have been talked through and debated at the time.
The law enacted during the civil war was decided in the midst of chaos with a country about to split apart. You might even say that there was NO actual unified USA at the time it was introduced. It also had more to do with losing a man’s fighting body than citizenship. Yet that’s the one the US hangs onto.
Prof. Christians said herself that she believes the fee for FATCA renunciation wouldn’t hold up in court if someone were to fight it.
Remember when 1000s of letters were given to congress and written by expats to explain their woes- and it all fell on deaf ears? I am just wondering if the people who vote on this are so tired of all the nonsense going on at the White House, that they are willing to finally open their eyes and see the reality of CBT and how it harms people! Its about being fed up with all the ugliness going on in Washington. I certainly have my fingers crossed that common sense returns to politics.
Perhaps some justice for Accidentals will come with ADCS legal success.
JC, I cannot see how. A successful lawsuit means no more protection through IGA. Currently accidentals and other US persons can hide. With IGA gone they could be in a more vulnerable position. A win might help to bring down FATCA eventually but is hard to imagine any short term gain for affected Canadians including accidentals. Lack of injury may make winning lawsuit a struggle just as it did with American suit. Too bad accidentals are not following Fabien Lehagre’ footsteps to have own Accidrntal Americans association branch. Would be good to capitalize on the innocent accidental situation from a political perspective, not limit fight to a lawsuit. French have FATCA lawsuit also but are not putting all eggs in one basket.
@Jules, apologies, yet I 100% disagree with you. A legal fight is the right way to achieve change for Accidentals. Only through legal victory may there be enduring change. You appear to be assuming that there is no backing from within the US to repeal FATCA; and that there are no U.S. constitutional issues with FATCA.
The gain an ADCS legal victory will be no less than elevated highlight as to the unjust extraterritorial U.S. double taxation that lax Canadian “agreements” have allowed (much more so than in the pretrial), in violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights among other Canadian laws; and it would force a Canadian government political reckoning with remedy of FATCA IGA and Tax Treaty where Canadian Government sovereignty is infringed.
Canada could say to the U.S.: that the FATCA IGA is unfair for Canada in that the U.S. has not provided reciprocal data as promised, the U.S. has not paid for Canadian implementation costs for what has turned out to be a one-way arrangement, and that it violates the Canadian Charter of Rights; and thus Canada will suspend provision of FATCA IGA information until the U.S. provides reciprocal data first, pays for Canadian bank implementation costs if the U.S. will not provide reciprocal data by a certain deadline, and first modifies the tax treaty and FATCA IGA with full respect to Canadian sovereignty and the Canadian Charter of Rights.
Finally I’ve had time to watch the entire video. I am grateful for the efforts of all three gentlemen and I support the TTFI effort on behalf of all those it may help. As for me, personally, every indication is that I will have to wait for Tax Reform 3.0. I can only hope that 2.0 will be a paving of the way for its development.
Not quite good enough. For an Accidental American who has never considered himself as a US citizen and of course never filed, and likely didn’t even know about the requirement until recent years, having to be tax compliant for three years to qualify for TTFI such that they can then continue to ignore the US tax system is ludicrous and makes no sense at all.
I suppose you could split these people into two groups: those who also want to shed the US citizenship, and those who want to keep it. I suppose the 3-year compliance for those who want to keep it could be justified, but not for those who don’t.
It is all talk. Everyone knows that nothing will be done. It is the most corrupt country in the world. Indeed the evil empire
Instead of solving this mess, both Congress and Treasury not only ignore it, but actually create further mess and difficulties with new laws, compliance regulations and IRS. They hold the whole world hostage. “Fair share” – what is my fair share of I do not live there and do not even visit???? Yet, they expect me to file and pay. And if I do not , they penalise and in prison people… fair share??? How can all this be constitutional at all???
All of us here share your frustration, Roger.
Any updates? Anyone know when this bill is going to be voted on?
Rick, agree with your comment. Regarding the two groups you refer to, no surprise that RO would really only care about those who wish to retain US citizenship thus the focus on helping them with TTFI. Why would they or any other American political group care about those who do not want U S citizenship? For those non-compliant US persons who would like not to be, perhaps focus on fighting from perspective of being not American. Work to pressure their own local governments. Seems not much interest forming an AA association in Canada but maybe a broader group would get more support. An organized group of Canadians rejecting US citizenship (long term expats and accidentals)?
The Solomon’s ttfi is ridiculous,inappropriate , and downright insulting to those who left their roots and planted their lives elsewhere with no intent of going back. I do hope that John Richardson et al realize this ,though his efforts are appreciated.
I’m sure John et al are well aware that accidentals and those who left the US behind and out of their lives decades ago are still in a bind. My guess is that Solomon will lose interest as soon as TTFI is achieved but I really believe John will continue the good fight.