112 thoughts on “John Richardson Interviewed by IRS Medic”
@barley
I don’t see any need to involve expensive tax lawyers. There are only 5 countries which have tax collection agreements with the US and none will collect if the US citizen is also a citizen of the other country at that time.
I will post links when I locate them.
You have to remember the IRS are overworked, understaffed and it isn’t worth their while to try to chase people outside their juristriction with the limited resources they have.
@Harrison
These are the 5, as far as anyone knows, other countries do not have collection arrangements. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/11/01/dual-citizens-of-sweden-france-netherlands-denmark-canada-take-note-your-country-will-not-collect-for-the-u-s/#comments.
the alternative is to apply for a SSN, I believe you can now do it from the consulate. File 5 yrs of back taxes, if you are under the FEIE, then it might be simple, file 6 yrs of fbars, file the 8854. As you are a dual citizen from birth and ‘would then be tax compliant’ you would be exempt from the exit tax IF you are living in your other citizenship country. (This is a special concession to duals from birth) nice eh …sarcasm.
@Heidi bad advice as per Phil Hodgens file your back taxes (Title 26) but no FBARs to be filed (Title 31). As always ask him for advice as I am not a lawyer but this is per verbatim from his newsletter. It will open up a pandora box. I remembered very well his blog or newsletter from six years ago.
@Barley you are dual from birth and never lived in USA so you are not a covered expat and can get out easily. Ask a lawyer for better advice always.
@ Harrison &Barley
That is for Barley to decide. He should read all he can and then make his decision. I do not know Barley’s position, but Phil deals with the super rich.
The IRS is not interested in the minnow. They cannot collect a bean from abroad except if Barley lives in one of those 5 counties and is not a citizen of one of them. Right now the IRS do not know Barley even exists let alone what he earns or what his assets are before he tells them Why should he do that?
My previous post should have been addressed to Barley.
@Heidi you are correct as he does advice to super rich. I am not rich but he did answer a few of my emails years ago without any charges. I am sure things have changed now
@Heidi, yes I believe his staff only answers on setting up appointments and charges money for every consultation.
@Barley
Based on what we know about the situation and what little we know about you (accidental, dual, US birthplace, no US financial ties; but not home country or level of wealth) I’d say the following:
1. Do not bother coming into US tax compliance – stay out of the system.
2. Consider renunciation only if you are having bank access or other issues due to US birthplace. (We don’t have such problems in Canada, but other countries can be strict about FATCA.)
@Barley
Unless you have lots and lots of money to deal with, you don’t need Phil Hodges (a good guy) or any other lawyer (generally not good guys).
@Heidi. None of the people on these blogs are super rich enough to be IRS targets as it targets only the very rich usually. I was reading the link on the thread link you posted and I think everyone is making a mountain out of mole hill. People like me are concerned only with our beneficiaries in US nothing else.
@Nonanymous you guys are lucky in Canada as you don’t know ground realities in other countries due to FATCA. I am surprised how Canada is not able to make you sign any bank forms yet as all other countries are going crazy and freezing the accounts and closure of accounts by bank if US citizen reveals himself ever.
Yes we are lucky.
We do sometimes sign bank forms, but the banks don’t check ID to see where we were born so can’t tell if our answers are truthful. They really don’t seem to care that much, at the level of regular customers rather than large investors.
Barley. No need to spend money on lawyers.
Either do nothing or renounce ( cost $2350) and do not file. They haven’t any reason or resources to bother you. I would say they don’t care about you We care about you and everyone in your position. Hundreds have been sucked into the compliance vortex tomtheir regret.
Thanks everyone for chiming in, I’ll read through your references.
Just a quick note, I’m *not* dual at birth, I acquired my second citizenship when my family moved aboard, as an infant.
@Barley you are in very good position. Just renounce and rejoice. I will be joining the ‘Renounce Toxic passport’ club soon.
@Heidi. You are right. Hodgens is not as helpful on emails as he was 5-6 years ago when I used to email him and got very good and quick answers. Of course no charge advice. Now his staff is handling everything.
@NonAnonymous. Lucky you. Do you get to open brokerage accounts in Canada too without US birth place being checked? It seems strange because everywhere else they are asking place of birth and checking their IDs for any US indicia. I can’t open up a business with a partner too as they are all scared of their account information going to IRS.
@Harrison
I assume that for a new brokerage account they would ask about citizenship but not actually check or validate whatever you told them. That’s what happened when I was asked about an existing investment account. I lied and they accepted my answer. The only ID that shows place of birth is a passport, but a drivers licence is sufficient to open an account.
My guess is that with a Model 1 IGA our banks are at less risk of US sanction and don’t want to annoy their customers (figure 3-4% of the population in Canada has US citizenship) so just asking the question is enough for due diligence – the answer isn’t important.
Consider that recent IRS ruling that banks have done enough if they just ask for an SSN once a year, but the customer doesn’t actually need to provide it, which suggests that the US might not care that much about non-residents anyway.
@Nonoymous. I wasn’t born in the US so I don’t have it mentioned on my passport but here in HK banks (Model 1 IGA) do ask on FATCA forms for US citizenship as a second citizenship. I have been to many countries in the past few years and same holds true for other countries. As I stated before you guys are lucky to be in Canada. I was told by one brokerage if you don’t lie on the form under penalty of perjury that you are not US citizen or permanent resident our compliance team will reject your application as they don’t want to do anything to do with US. That being said I left their office as I don’t want to break any laws on my way out of this toxic passport. These lies can later get you on your way out. US govt is the worst govt to deal with as per all banks and brokerages and being USD as the reserve currency it is frustrating for them too. No one blinks an eye on Canadian or U.K. citizens living in HK.
hi,
i’m a dual accidental american, with no ties to usa. my net worth is over 2 million, which makes me covered expat. is that right?
is it a good idea for me to renonce? i can’t afford to pay the exit tax, and i never intracted with the irs. i’m very stressed out, what should i do?
i don’t want to pay the exit tax, and i don’t want to report anything. i paid plenty of taxes in my home country (real home not US of gangsters), i’m not paying a single penny to fat Sam.
@Barley
Not being dual at birth, but having naturalized as a young child, puts you at a slight disadvantage because duals from birth are exempt from some exit tax provisions. I don’t remember the details. However, this is only a problem if you’re worth a fair chunk of money and you attempt compliance. If you just renounce without tax filings, not an issue.
@Harrison
I’ve come to believe that lying to a Canadian bank about US citizenship will never have any negative consequences.
@Dina
Are you dual from birth? That may mean that some exit tax provisions don’t apply.
Covered expatriate status is only a problem if you leave or give money to US taxpayers. Otherwise who cares?
In your case, pay to renounce only if you are having banking problems and need a CLN. Under no circumstances should you enter the US tax system. You can renounce without filing any tax forms, to avoid the exit tax.
Do you have a US birthplace, and is there any evidence that your banks have reported you under FATCA? If yes, you are probably still better off not filing. There is nothing the US can do to collect penalties from you in your home country.
Nonoymous ,
not dual from birth, naturalized at young age. i don’t really need a cln, but i’m afraid my bank will report me under fatca.
i don’t know if they’re aware of my us citizenship, and i don’t want to ask, as to not wake up daemons.
my country doesn’t have a tax collection agreement with the irs, as far as i’m aware, but counting on the banking/political system is not something i’m keen on doing.
so i’m left to choose between 4 horrible choices:
1. do nothing, and risk them discovering me, asking my government’s corporation.
2. renounce without filing, becoming a covered expat officially.
3. renounce after filing, and pay a huge exit tax.
4. comply using the streamlined procedure, exposing myself to huge compliance bills and complications.
i’d say 3 sounds the worst, not sure which is the most preferable among 1, 2 and 4.
btw, yes, i have a US birthplace.
Welcome, Dina.
I have not heard of one non-resident US person being contacted by the IRS as a result of FATCA.
Dina. It all depends on how often ,if at all, you might want to visit the US.
if never, then you can do nothing or renounce and do nothing else. There isn’t much they can do.
If you travel there a lot, eventually they might get around to telling you to get a US passport.
Or you can arrange your afairs to have minimal income for 5 years and fewer assets and then renounce.
This discussion belongs on the renunciation thread.
@barley
I don’t see any need to involve expensive tax lawyers. There are only 5 countries which have tax collection agreements with the US and none will collect if the US citizen is also a citizen of the other country at that time.
I will post links when I locate them.
You have to remember the IRS are overworked, understaffed and it isn’t worth their while to try to chase people outside their juristriction with the limited resources they have.
@Harrison
These are the 5, as far as anyone knows, other countries do not have collection arrangements.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2016/11/01/dual-citizens-of-sweden-france-netherlands-denmark-canada-take-note-your-country-will-not-collect-for-the-u-s/#comments.
the alternative is to apply for a SSN, I believe you can now do it from the consulate. File 5 yrs of back taxes, if you are under the FEIE, then it might be simple, file 6 yrs of fbars, file the 8854. As you are a dual citizen from birth and ‘would then be tax compliant’ you would be exempt from the exit tax IF you are living in your other citizenship country. (This is a special concession to duals from birth) nice eh …sarcasm.
@Heidi bad advice as per Phil Hodgens file your back taxes (Title 26) but no FBARs to be filed (Title 31). As always ask him for advice as I am not a lawyer but this is per verbatim from his newsletter. It will open up a pandora box. I remembered very well his blog or newsletter from six years ago.
@Barley you are dual from birth and never lived in USA so you are not a covered expat and can get out easily. Ask a lawyer for better advice always.
@ Harrison &Barley
That is for Barley to decide. He should read all he can and then make his decision. I do not know Barley’s position, but Phil deals with the super rich.
The IRS is not interested in the minnow. They cannot collect a bean from abroad except if Barley lives in one of those 5 counties and is not a citizen of one of them. Right now the IRS do not know Barley even exists let alone what he earns or what his assets are before he tells them Why should he do that?
My previous post should have been addressed to Barley.
@Heidi you are correct as he does advice to super rich. I am not rich but he did answer a few of my emails years ago without any charges. I am sure things have changed now
@Heidi, yes I believe his staff only answers on setting up appointments and charges money for every consultation.
@Barley
Based on what we know about the situation and what little we know about you (accidental, dual, US birthplace, no US financial ties; but not home country or level of wealth) I’d say the following:
1. Do not bother coming into US tax compliance – stay out of the system.
2. Consider renunciation only if you are having bank access or other issues due to US birthplace. (We don’t have such problems in Canada, but other countries can be strict about FATCA.)
@Barley
Unless you have lots and lots of money to deal with, you don’t need Phil Hodges (a good guy) or any other lawyer (generally not good guys).
@Heidi. None of the people on these blogs are super rich enough to be IRS targets as it targets only the very rich usually. I was reading the link on the thread link you posted and I think everyone is making a mountain out of mole hill. People like me are concerned only with our beneficiaries in US nothing else.
@Nonanymous you guys are lucky in Canada as you don’t know ground realities in other countries due to FATCA. I am surprised how Canada is not able to make you sign any bank forms yet as all other countries are going crazy and freezing the accounts and closure of accounts by bank if US citizen reveals himself ever.
Yes we are lucky.
We do sometimes sign bank forms, but the banks don’t check ID to see where we were born so can’t tell if our answers are truthful. They really don’t seem to care that much, at the level of regular customers rather than large investors.
Barley. No need to spend money on lawyers.
Either do nothing or renounce ( cost $2350) and do not file. They haven’t any reason or resources to bother you. I would say they don’t care about you We care about you and everyone in your position. Hundreds have been sucked into the compliance vortex tomtheir regret.
Thanks everyone for chiming in, I’ll read through your references.
Just a quick note, I’m *not* dual at birth, I acquired my second citizenship when my family moved aboard, as an infant.
@Barley you are in very good position. Just renounce and rejoice. I will be joining the ‘Renounce Toxic passport’ club soon.
@Heidi. You are right. Hodgens is not as helpful on emails as he was 5-6 years ago when I used to email him and got very good and quick answers. Of course no charge advice. Now his staff is handling everything.
@NonAnonymous. Lucky you. Do you get to open brokerage accounts in Canada too without US birth place being checked? It seems strange because everywhere else they are asking place of birth and checking their IDs for any US indicia. I can’t open up a business with a partner too as they are all scared of their account information going to IRS.
@Harrison
I assume that for a new brokerage account they would ask about citizenship but not actually check or validate whatever you told them. That’s what happened when I was asked about an existing investment account. I lied and they accepted my answer. The only ID that shows place of birth is a passport, but a drivers licence is sufficient to open an account.
My guess is that with a Model 1 IGA our banks are at less risk of US sanction and don’t want to annoy their customers (figure 3-4% of the population in Canada has US citizenship) so just asking the question is enough for due diligence – the answer isn’t important.
Consider that recent IRS ruling that banks have done enough if they just ask for an SSN once a year, but the customer doesn’t actually need to provide it, which suggests that the US might not care that much about non-residents anyway.
@Nonoymous. I wasn’t born in the US so I don’t have it mentioned on my passport but here in HK banks (Model 1 IGA) do ask on FATCA forms for US citizenship as a second citizenship. I have been to many countries in the past few years and same holds true for other countries. As I stated before you guys are lucky to be in Canada. I was told by one brokerage if you don’t lie on the form under penalty of perjury that you are not US citizen or permanent resident our compliance team will reject your application as they don’t want to do anything to do with US. That being said I left their office as I don’t want to break any laws on my way out of this toxic passport. These lies can later get you on your way out. US govt is the worst govt to deal with as per all banks and brokerages and being USD as the reserve currency it is frustrating for them too. No one blinks an eye on Canadian or U.K. citizens living in HK.
hi,
i’m a dual accidental american, with no ties to usa. my net worth is over 2 million, which makes me covered expat. is that right?
is it a good idea for me to renonce? i can’t afford to pay the exit tax, and i never intracted with the irs. i’m very stressed out, what should i do?
i don’t want to pay the exit tax, and i don’t want to report anything. i paid plenty of taxes in my home country (real home not US of gangsters), i’m not paying a single penny to fat Sam.
@Barley
Not being dual at birth, but having naturalized as a young child, puts you at a slight disadvantage because duals from birth are exempt from some exit tax provisions. I don’t remember the details. However, this is only a problem if you’re worth a fair chunk of money and you attempt compliance. If you just renounce without tax filings, not an issue.
@Harrison
I’ve come to believe that lying to a Canadian bank about US citizenship will never have any negative consequences.
@Dina
Are you dual from birth? That may mean that some exit tax provisions don’t apply.
Covered expatriate status is only a problem if you leave or give money to US taxpayers. Otherwise who cares?
In your case, pay to renounce only if you are having banking problems and need a CLN. Under no circumstances should you enter the US tax system. You can renounce without filing any tax forms, to avoid the exit tax.
Do you have a US birthplace, and is there any evidence that your banks have reported you under FATCA? If yes, you are probably still better off not filing. There is nothing the US can do to collect penalties from you in your home country.
Nonoymous ,
not dual from birth, naturalized at young age. i don’t really need a cln, but i’m afraid my bank will report me under fatca.
i don’t know if they’re aware of my us citizenship, and i don’t want to ask, as to not wake up daemons.
my country doesn’t have a tax collection agreement with the irs, as far as i’m aware, but counting on the banking/political system is not something i’m keen on doing.
so i’m left to choose between 4 horrible choices:
1. do nothing, and risk them discovering me, asking my government’s corporation.
2. renounce without filing, becoming a covered expat officially.
3. renounce after filing, and pay a huge exit tax.
4. comply using the streamlined procedure, exposing myself to huge compliance bills and complications.
i’d say 3 sounds the worst, not sure which is the most preferable among 1, 2 and 4.
btw, yes, i have a US birthplace.
Welcome, Dina.
I have not heard of one non-resident US person being contacted by the IRS as a result of FATCA.
Dina. It all depends on how often ,if at all, you might want to visit the US.
if never, then you can do nothing or renounce and do nothing else. There isn’t much they can do.
If you travel there a lot, eventually they might get around to telling you to get a US passport.
Or you can arrange your afairs to have minimal income for 5 years and fewer assets and then renounce.
This discussion belongs on the renunciation thread.