[OCTOBER 24, 2017 POSTMORTEM: MANY THANKS TO THE SIGNERS! — RO says: “We now have 3027 petitions …plus 535 letters… Fewer than we wanted, but still respectable.” ]
[Quote in title is from this link provided by Mike, below.]
TODAY IS THE LAST DAY TO SPEND JUST ONE MINUTE OF YOUR TIME TO SEND TTFI PETITION TO U.S. CONGRESS AND MAKE A CHANGE
AFTER 12:00 NOON TODAY, REPUBLICANS OVERSEAS BEGINS TO COMPILE THE SIGNATURES TO BE SENT TO CONGRESS.
Can you please set aside one minute of your time and sign the Republicans Overseas (RO) petition to end U.S.-style worldwide taxation and establish TTFI (territorial taxation for individuals) by signing their petition that will be sent to U.S. Congress.
Of course we know that this is an uphill battle, but RO is working hard to change the U.S. “Worldwide Taxation” system to “Territorial Taxation For Individuals”.
If RO is successful, do you accept that TTFI could be some modest “good news” even and especially for those persons and their families who have never wanted to have anything to do with the United States and just want “out”?
No one knows what will be in the final tax reform proposal, but I think that a fair question to consider is: If an RO TTFI-like proposal becomes law, is it likely that your life and your children’s lives will be at least “somewhat” better than it is now — irrespective of whether you want to be an American or not, or whether you are IRS compliant or not, or whether you like Republicans or Democrats or not?
If you believe that you and your family might be helped by TTFI, then sign the petition.
— And, if you, like me, have already renounced U.S. tax citizenship and would not personally be helped by TTFI, sign the petition anyway if you feel that your support could help others.
See below the 10/10/2017 letter on the TTFI petition emailed to me from RO’s Michael DeSombre.
— The key time sensitive point of this post is that although our letters and petitions (1744) from many of you have already been delivered and discussed with White House and some legislative staff, WE ASK FOR YOUR HELP IN OBTAINING EVEN MORE (at least 5000 total) PETITIONS — TO BE DELIVERED DIRECTLY TO CONGRESS BY OCTOBER 22, 2017.
Please take one minute to fill out the petition HERE.
The letter from RO:
“One of the most important items discussed [at the White House meeting] was Republican Overseas’ political strategy for having TTFI included in tax reform. These discussions provided significant positive feedback and insight. With this new information, RO will tailor its lobbying strategy going forward to maximize our chances of ending citizenship based taxation.
The three most important meetings with regards to ending CBT were with Samantha Zager, White House Associate Political Director, and with Matt Stross, Legislative Counsel to Congressman George Holding (North Carolina), and Congressman David Schweikert, a key member on the House Ways and Means Committee.
Ms. Zager was impressed with the letters and the volume of petitions. The White House supports our grassroot efforts to reach out to Congress and to lobby for the inclusion of TTFI. Ms. Zager will help to facilitate meetings with individual members in both the White House and Congress who can help with TTFI inclusion.
While we have White House support, only Congress makes law. We need to ensure that any tax reform bill sent to the President includes TTFI. Congress needs to hear from overseas Americans directly.
What you probably want to know now is: “Have we done it? Is CBT a thing of the past? Is this double taxation nightmare over?” Unfortunately, CBT is not gone yet, but we are definitely in the process of consigning CBT to history.
The next step is to take our fight to Congress.
We are setting up meetings with key members of the House Ways and Means Committee and the Senate Finance Committee on October 23-25, 2017. Republicans Overseas has three goals for this second phase:
— Deliver a petition requesting the inclusion of TTFI in the tax reform package with 6400 signatures from overseas Americans. Our petition campaign will continue until October 22, 2017 in order to gather the necessary signatures.
— Deliver 10-20 letters that will be included as testimony into the Congressional hearings on tax reform.
— Meet with key people who are drafting the tax reform package and ensure that they have heard your voices and understand that TTFI tax reform will benefit America as well as benefiting overseas Americans.
We need your help! Here is what you can do to support TTFI:
— Please sign the petition if you haven’t already done so. I assume all of you have already done so, but if not, please do so right away. The campaign will run until October 22, 2017, and we have a new landing page for the petition. We have your signature if you have already signed—no need to sign again.
— Please go out again to your mailing list or friends and ensure they have all signed the petition. -Ensure you hit both Democrats and Republicans.
— Become a paid member (e.g., Associate level) of Republicans Overseas HERE. RO is entirely self-funded, and your membership fees will be used to continue the legal and political battle against FATCA as well as to fund the political efforts to end citizenship based taxation.
Thank you for your ongoing support! We can’t do it without you. We will continue to fight for the end of citizenship based taxation.
Regards,
Michael DeSombre”
I should probably spend some time on Quora, but then I spent too much time on this stuff already. (Not that I should complain – if I hadn’t spent time educating myself I might have done something stupid and tried compliance.)
Some of my comments on Quora have many thousands of views, combined that will be many hundreds of thousands. Many people had absolutely no idea the USA was taxing people who left the country, no idea what this meant in real terms for peoples lives and no idea that thousands of people are now renouncing US citizenship in order to live peaceful law abiding lives free of persecution by the USA and discrimination in their home countries.
For those who do not have the guts to tell the IRS to go pound sand and/ or who cannot bring themselves to renounce their citizenship, the USA has become a prison. Americans are not free to leave. It’s a truly incredible thing and while many won’t give a damn because the USA is paradise and the rest of the world is a shithole, nobody is going to be concerned if they don’t even know about it.
Most are blissfully unaware that they are now living in the biggest open prison on the planet.
@Mike
Yes, and those that do understand the scenario, (like my US resident kids) don’t want to admit or face up to it, as they think it doesn’t directly affect them and even if it did, there is little they can do about it.
@Mike
Could you from time to time post links to good Quora threads in the usual “stuff open for question or comment” thread or wherever. Those of us so inclined could pile on.
Beautifully said, Mike. Quote worthy in fact.
@ Bubblebustin
RE: Mike … I agree.
Man I feel out of touch. I’d never heard of Quora. 🙁 And slow too. I’m still catching up on Brock after a 20 hour power outage, the bright side of which was being able to see the Milky Way from our back doorstep because all the streetlights were out too.
14th amendment:
“The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.”
If a State Department employee persuades someone not to renounce US citizenship, the US government can pay salary, pension, and bonus to the State Department employee. But if a State Department employee accepts a renunciation, the US government is not allowed to pay the employee.
I think this also provides another method of relinquishment. You don’t have to fuel your car with gasoline made from Iranian oil. You can sell a trinket to someone else and accept payment in Confederate currency. The 14th amendment doesn’t prohibit this private transaction, but it does say that Confederate currency (debt or obligation of the Confederacy) aided insurrection or rebellion against the United States. Report this treasonous action on your next US passport application and you should get your CLN.
Anyone can go to Quora and search questions using keywords. Search FATCA, dual citizenship, citizenship based taxation all bring up questions you might like to answer.
Not sure if this link will work, but three thousand people have read my answer already.
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-lose-US-citizenship-upon-moving-to-the-UK-and-you-dont-pay-taxes-to-America/answer/Mike-Breen-4?__filter__&__nsrc__=2&__snid3__=1612668519
@ Mike
It does indeed work. Thanks. Great answer there.
Excellent quote from Mike!!
About one hour left to send in your petition or alert others that they can also do so.
Out of 9M Americans overseas, there were 4.5M eligible voters in 2016. The total number of Americans overseas who voted in 2016 were 562,853 (not including military) hence true Americans overseas. This is 12% of eligible voters who voted.
We received approximately 3,000 signatures on the TTFI petition.
No matter how one slices it, it is not impressive and will show that Americans overseas do not care for a change from Citizenship Based Taxation to a residency type of taxation (obviously except for the 3,000 individuals who signed the petition.). This is a once in a generation chance to possibly make a significant change vis-à-vis tax reform for Americans overseas.
Continued lobbying will be done this week in Washington DC but with these numbers, it does not give Americans overseas a good standing at all. One can make all the excuses one wants but the bottom line is that this is the cold, harsh reality.
I know we can do better but we have to work with what we have at this juncture.
As always, I will keep you updated.
Keith REDMOND
American Overseas Global Advocate
@keith Redmond
It’s very clear that these life forms that you call “American Expatriates” are committed to the principle of citizenship-based taxation or committed to the principle of not fighting to change it. Anybody can sign a petition!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s all that was asked of them. So, what went wrong? Why did they not sign?
They didn’t sigh the petition for one simple reason:
They didn’t want to!!! They didn’t want to!!! They didn’t want to!!!
The reasons they have given for not signing are absolutely irrelevant. There WAS sufficient awareness of this issue and the petition to have generated far more than 3,000 signatures –far more!!!
Therefore, given the level of awareness they did not want to sign for one of two reasons:
1. They support citizenship-taxation. That is their right. They are Americans and the have the right to think what they want. Personally, I think those who have worked so hard and so tirelessly in in this fight against U.S. tax slavery, should thank those in this first group for their honesty. Yes, they are finally admitting that they are true CBT supporters. (But, I bet they are not filing.) They are proud of one of things that makes America truly unique.
2. They oppose citizenship-taxation, but the won’t sign for reasons that include:
– It’s the Republicans who are trying to help us and I am a loyal Democrat. (Reminding me of the people in Jonestown who drank the poison).
– I oppose citizenship-based taxation, but because I don’t file it doesn’t affect me. Because, I don’t care about things that don’t affect me, I won’t sign. It’s all about ME and that’s the American way!
– Sorry, as a “good American”, I am so terrified of the U.S. Government, that I don’t even want them to know I exist. I don’t mind if you stick up from my rights, but I am far too afraid to stand up for my own rights.
– I have filed and I file correctly (“life is full of rude awakenings”). Because the FEIE and FTC rules means I don’t actually have to pay the U.S. tax I would owe, I think CBT is okay.
– I like the fact that as an American living in another country I am being used as a tool by the U.S. Government to siphon capital from other countries back to the Homeland. I can hardly wait to sell my next house and transfer part of the capital gain back to the Homeland for better use. That’s what a proud American should so. Also, it makes me feel that I live a purposeful life.
– As an American overseas, I am to report on the bank accounts of my non-U.S. spouse and I am proud of it. Also, I heard that my nephew didn’t even file his FBAR and I believe that it is my moral obligation to turn him in. My obligation is first and foremost to the Homeland. “Homeland, Homeland uber alles!”
– I recognize that as a U.S. citizen living in another country, I am a danger to the economic stability of my country of residence. Even if those countries attempt to deport me I am not worried. Hell no, I not worried at all because:
From the moment of my birth, to my last breath on this earth, I am an American, and by God, CBT is:
Truth, Justice and American Way!!!!!!!!!!!
Grover Norquist believes tax reform will happen but what I’m not clear on is whether TTFI is in or out of the package. If it is not in there right now can it be inserted before the legislation is voted on? I know he supports TTFI but he doesn’t mention it in this interview.
https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/10/20/grover-norquist-all-major-parts-of-tax-reform-will-be-enacted.html
@EmBee – It is not in the current package. Republicans Overseas are lobbying hard for TTFI to be included but as stated above, it is quite an arduous task under normal circumstances but with the LACK of support from Americans overseas, it is not going to be easy at all to have TTFI included. Americans overseas will only have themselves to blame on this. This is the bottom line.
Thanks, Keith. That’s what I thought but I just needed it reiterated. There doesn’t seem to be much time left and the next opportunity for US tax reform will not likely come in what is left of my lifetime. Half as many signatures as needed … very sad.
The response to this petition doesn’t surprise me at all. But is it really the be-all-and-end-all? I thought that we’d learned by now that lawmakers don’t give a rat’s ass about expats. I doubt even nine million signatures would raise an eyebrow, as long as they continue to see us as billionaire child sex traffickers trying to avoid paying our fair share.
I’d have thought that the only numbers that count in Washington are the economic arguments about the economic benefits of switching to TTFI or RBT and repealing FATCA.
Apathy and fear again appear to feed that grand American Exceptionalism (keep American unique and weird).
Continued support of discrimination / opportunity wasted as critical thinking skills not used to realize strength in numbers by simply having joined forces.
How many Homelanders Abroad only for themselves and the homeland they will eventually return to? How many of us who will never return are OK with the treasuries of our chosen countries so easily siphoned away?
We’ve seen it all along these many years of Brock in the relatively few who cared to stand up for the whole. One grows weary.
Barbara is right (Homelanders, wherever they reside — inside or outside the USA boundaries) don’t give a rat’s ass about expats). Perhaps the powers that be will assess their folly in the economics of it all.
“Therefore, given the level of awareness they did not want to sign for one of two reasons:
1. They support citizenship-taxation. That is their right. […]
2. They oppose citizenship-taxation, but the won’t sign for reasons that include: […]”
The percentage who learned not to comply with CBT by not filing US returns, not investing in the US, and not sending the IRS the bullets to use for abusing them, is somewhere in the vicinity of those who didn’t cast a vote to choose between two criminals. I’d say your category 1 doesn’t include any of the great silent majority. Your category 2 is almost right on, except that some of the reasons you list in category 2 belong to category 1 not category 2.
There’s probably a category 3, those who don’t know how bad it is. Face it, a lot of stuff about the IRS is unbelievable except by those who have been victimized by it.
The 3,000 who signed the petition includes at least one non-American. At least one other non-American felt I couldn’t really sign it because I’m a non-American.
“Truth, Justice and American Way!!!!!!!!!!!”
Truth and justice are incompatible with the American way. Telling the truth on a tax return is grounds for penalties. Telling the truth in court is contempt of court.
The comments have it all wrong. We need to claim victory. We did not get as many to sign as signed for tax reform generally. Let’s put this in context, then the amazing result is properly revealed. From 323 million came 6,400 petition signatures. From 9 million overseas came ~3,000 signatures.
To get the same response numbers as the 323 million population of the U.S., U.S. persons overseas needed to be 36 times more responsive. Instead we were only 18 times more responsive.
And there might have been double response had the Democrats put their own petition out at the same time.
@JC
You make a good point:
Yes, we claim victory in spite of the responses from Americans abroad!
@ JC
I like your take on this … something positive for the petition presenters to keep in mind. And we could factor in the degree of difficulty (like they do in sports competitions such as diving) in obtaining these signatures from 9 million people scattered all around the globe. So let’s just round that up to outlanders being 20 times more responsive than homelanders. 🙂
Some of the persons I personally approached for signing were (to the best of their knowledge and ability — but who really knows?) “IRS compliant”.
Some of these signed the petition immediately (within a few minutes of my request) while others, after my many repeated requests, would not. Apathy was never the reason, and it is incorrect to say that these people “do not care for a change from Citizenship Based Taxation”. The simple reason was that even though they are IRS compliant, they are still afraid of somehow being targeted by IRS/whoever through disclosure of their name on a petition involving IRS tax compliance.
They are scared and refused to take a chance.
I am really thankful to each of the 3000 — from 88 different countries — who did sign.
In terms of general strategy, my own thinking is that should the 2017/2018 “best and last chance” U.S. legislative attempt to kill citizenship-based taxation fail, then the next step should be litigation — if we can find the right plaintiffs.
As paranoid as I am, I can’t see the IRS combing through petitions and selecting victims. This would amount to intimidation, would use up valuable time and resources, and would likely be very low yield. Besides, how likely is it that a true fat cat fraudster with seizable assets in the US would sign the petition?