[OCTOBER 24, 2017 POSTMORTEM: MANY THANKS TO THE SIGNERS! — RO says: “We now have 3027 petitions …plus 535 letters… Fewer than we wanted, but still respectable.” ]
[Quote in title is from this link provided by Mike, below.]
TODAY IS THE LAST DAY TO SPEND JUST ONE MINUTE OF YOUR TIME TO SEND TTFI PETITION TO U.S. CONGRESS AND MAKE A CHANGE
AFTER 12:00 NOON TODAY, REPUBLICANS OVERSEAS BEGINS TO COMPILE THE SIGNATURES TO BE SENT TO CONGRESS.
Can you please set aside one minute of your time and sign the Republicans Overseas (RO) petition to end U.S.-style worldwide taxation and establish TTFI (territorial taxation for individuals) by signing their petition that will be sent to U.S. Congress.
Of course we know that this is an uphill battle, but RO is working hard to change the U.S. “Worldwide Taxation” system to “Territorial Taxation For Individuals”.
If RO is successful, do you accept that TTFI could be some modest “good news” even and especially for those persons and their families who have never wanted to have anything to do with the United States and just want “out”?
No one knows what will be in the final tax reform proposal, but I think that a fair question to consider is: If an RO TTFI-like proposal becomes law, is it likely that your life and your children’s lives will be at least “somewhat” better than it is now — irrespective of whether you want to be an American or not, or whether you are IRS compliant or not, or whether you like Republicans or Democrats or not?
If you believe that you and your family might be helped by TTFI, then sign the petition.
— And, if you, like me, have already renounced U.S. tax citizenship and would not personally be helped by TTFI, sign the petition anyway if you feel that your support could help others.
See below the 10/10/2017 letter on the TTFI petition emailed to me from RO’s Michael DeSombre.
— The key time sensitive point of this post is that although our letters and petitions (1744) from many of you have already been delivered and discussed with White House and some legislative staff, WE ASK FOR YOUR HELP IN OBTAINING EVEN MORE (at least 5000 total) PETITIONS — TO BE DELIVERED DIRECTLY TO CONGRESS BY OCTOBER 22, 2017.
Please take one minute to fill out the petition HERE.
The letter from RO:
“One of the most important items discussed [at the White House meeting] was Republican Overseas’ political strategy for having TTFI included in tax reform. These discussions provided significant positive feedback and insight. With this new information, RO will tailor its lobbying strategy going forward to maximize our chances of ending citizenship based taxation.
The three most important meetings with regards to ending CBT were with Samantha Zager, White House Associate Political Director, and with Matt Stross, Legislative Counsel to Congressman George Holding (North Carolina), and Congressman David Schweikert, a key member on the House Ways and Means Committee.
Ms. Zager was impressed with the letters and the volume of petitions. The White House supports our grassroot efforts to reach out to Congress and to lobby for the inclusion of TTFI. Ms. Zager will help to facilitate meetings with individual members in both the White House and Congress who can help with TTFI inclusion.
While we have White House support, only Congress makes law. We need to ensure that any tax reform bill sent to the President includes TTFI. Congress needs to hear from overseas Americans directly.
What you probably want to know now is: “Have we done it? Is CBT a thing of the past? Is this double taxation nightmare over?” Unfortunately, CBT is not gone yet, but we are definitely in the process of consigning CBT to history.
The next step is to take our fight to Congress.
We are setting up meetings with key members of the House Ways and Means Committee and the Senate Finance Committee on October 23-25, 2017. Republicans Overseas has three goals for this second phase:
— Deliver a petition requesting the inclusion of TTFI in the tax reform package with 6400 signatures from overseas Americans. Our petition campaign will continue until October 22, 2017 in order to gather the necessary signatures.
— Deliver 10-20 letters that will be included as testimony into the Congressional hearings on tax reform.
— Meet with key people who are drafting the tax reform package and ensure that they have heard your voices and understand that TTFI tax reform will benefit America as well as benefiting overseas Americans.
We need your help! Here is what you can do to support TTFI:
— Please sign the petition if you haven’t already done so. I assume all of you have already done so, but if not, please do so right away. The campaign will run until October 22, 2017, and we have a new landing page for the petition. We have your signature if you have already signed—no need to sign again.
— Please go out again to your mailing list or friends and ensure they have all signed the petition. -Ensure you hit both Democrats and Republicans.
— Become a paid member (e.g., Associate level) of Republicans Overseas HERE. RO is entirely self-funded, and your membership fees will be used to continue the legal and political battle against FATCA as well as to fund the political efforts to end citizenship based taxation.
Thank you for your ongoing support! We can’t do it without you. We will continue to fight for the end of citizenship based taxation.
Regards,
Michael DeSombre”
JC posted this on the Media and Blog thread but I think it fits nicely with this one too …
6,400 expat American signatures sought on petition to end citizenship-based tax
By: Helen Burggraf | 16 Oct 2017
http://www.internationalinvestment.net/products/6400-expat-american-signatures-sought-petition-end-citizenship-based-tax/
This is our last best chance for who knows how long and some people are reluctant to participate because they feel the RO proposal for TTFI could use some improvement? Geesh!
“While this is one position I agree overall with Republicans Overseas, I think the document proposing Territorial Taxation could use some improvement in its presentation, more streamlined, comprehensible, and convincing, less repetitive, as well as some adding some footnotes referring to studies on the effects that citizenship-based taxation, fatca, etc. are having. Missing for example is the significant impact on US-persons abroad in getting the most basic financial services. The language is just far too vague, and bullet-point positions unsubstantiated. I would have a difficult time signing the petition.. though I am considering it.”
@EmBee – As usual you are so right. I suppose it was a moment of depression on my part when I read that the Republican Platform was not really a Party Platform at all. Disgust all over my face presently.
@Bubblebustin
While I also think the TTFI document has serious flaws (and I haven’t been shy about expressing my concerns), I signed this petition as soon as it came out (and wrote a letter as well). At this point the battle is to get Congress to recognise the problem and put ANYTHING into their draft legislation. Once we see the draft bill, we can express our concerns to anyone who will listen. I seriously doubt that any proposed legislation will contain either the RO/TTFI or ACA/RBT proposals in their entirety. The draft bill will be the result of compromise and lobbying by interest groups with much deeper pockets that the US diaspora. Any mention of RBT/TTFI will be a huge step forward.
nervousinvestor: I’m so glad you’ve reconsidered. I was depressed too but supporting this petition is the right thing to do. In fact it really is our only choice. Karen is right. We have to get *us* — the little people, the “forgotten” — noticed and into this bill.This is an organized, worldwide push to the finish. We can win this thing but only if we shout in a massive, unison chorus.
Kat Jennings who runs taxconnections.com has put up a very nice section for Americans abroad-with a logo, a link to the petition and some of our videos.
https://www.taxconnections.com/americans-abroad-videos
I can’t believe how many (wo)man hours I’ve spent in the past few days trying to convince just 8 people in 4 countries to sign the petition. So many react with a self-righteous, “I’ll never connect my name to the Republican Party!” Or like nervous squirrels with, “Th-th-the IRS will p-p-p-pick my name off the list and-and-and audit me.”
Long, long e-mails back and forth, back and forth. End result: two are “considering it”. It seems that US expatriates are just as frightened to stick their necks out as the average North Korean. Pathetic!
Yes, pathetic, but true. I can’t imagine any other reason for the lack of support: the non-compliant majority just hopes to disappear into the background as there is no exit for them except the threat of life changing penalties. It is exactly like asking the North Koreans to petition against Kim Jong Un.
Note that the worst hit are also the ones who do not have a “voting State” or any right to vote… do those matter to the Republicans?
That said, we have never been so close to a political resolution and won’t be again for decades, so it is the last possibility for all to be heard. Take courage!
“End result: two are “considering it”. It seems that US expatriates are just as frightened to stick their necks out as the average North Korean. Pathetic!”
I managed a couple, but my local barmaid is still quite insistent that non of this has anything to do with her. She has firmly stuck her head in the sand and reacts quite angrily when I try and get her to take a look and understand how it could impact her in the future.
“I live in the UK, I’m not going back there, how am I supposed to follow all this when I don’t live there, I don’t have a UK bank account, the US don’t know where I live” etc etc.
She’s frightened to sign, that’s what she wants to say.
ONLY FOUR MORE DAYS LEFT
@Barbara et al
It has become clear that any escape from the “chains of citizenship taxation” will be IN SPITE of Americans abroad and not “because of Americans abroad”. Those who are not wiling to sign the petition are (to use your word) “pathetic”. In addition, their fear of the U.S. Government is proof positive of how tyrannical the U.S. Government has become. The new definition of the average American is a carbon life form who will:
As Thomas Jefferson once said (more or less):
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What I find truly unbelievable is that on this blog and others, there appear to be more people criticizing the proposals put forth by ACA, RO, DA, etc, than are willing to actively participate by even signing a petition!!
If you won’t do anything to help yourself, why don’t you do something to help your children?
@Anonymous by necessity
The worst hit are the ones who have been in the U.S. tax system. This is because people have figured out that because of the complexity, costs, penalties and restrictions noncompliance is almost always better than compliance.
There are two battles going here:
Battle 1: A small number of individuals and organizations who are actively trying to get the laws changed. They are battling both the U.S. Government AND the Americans abroad – who by NOT signing petitions – are in effect reinforcing the status quo.
Battle 2: Those Americans abroad who ARE tax compliant vs. those who are NOT tax compliant. For example the ACA “same country exemption” and “proposal for taxation based on residence” are designed to benefit those who are already in the U.S. tax system. These proposals are criticized most harshly by those who are NOT in the system.
Those who are in the system are finished. They have to renounce or find some other way of escape. Those who are not in the system have already escaped. Their worry is only that they will somehow be forced into the system.
In any case, the next few months will determine whether a political solution is possible. If I were a Congressman considering the level of support for change, I might say:
We have never been closer to a political solution.
Only Americans as a group are capable of “snatching defeat from the jaws of victory” by not taking advantage of this (literally) “once in a lifetime opportunity”.
As for criticism of those shying away from protestation, let me just tender my path, to give you hope.
I became aware of FATCA when a bank in Belgium, Deutche Bank, closed my accounts because of my birthplace. This was 3.5 years ago.
I found you guys, and got informed. I admired those here who advocated publicly. I stayed under the radar.
But little by little I have become more vocal. Thanks to all of you, in no small part.
Over the past year I have exchanged email with MEP Sophie in ‘ Veld, written to my Republican Congressman and Senator (AZ), written to Democrats Abroad, sent paper letters to the 6 major players (Ryan, Mnuchin, Cohn, McConnell, Knight, Brady), and of coursed signed the current petition.
This just to say that you should not despair. You all lead by example, and motivate many of us “background” types to take action, and sign their name to letters advocating change. It’s slow because people are lazy, afraid, and ignorant. These factors can all change.
Re: USCitizenAbroad “there are two battles going on here”
Perhaps you should add Battle 3: Those “Americans” abroad who do not consider themselves Americans and want only to renounce but cannot for whatever reason (financial, disability, family ties, etc) vs. Americans abroad who are content (or would be if there was some move away from strict CBT) to retain American citizenship.
It is hard if not impossible to get support from the former group as they see nothing that helps them out of their dilemma. Mike’s barmaid is likely in this group. She is not pathetic. She simply feels trapped. If there was a proposal to change citizenship laws to make it far easier and less costly to renounce, in line with other countries, then she would probably be on board. However, such a proposal stands a snowball’s chance in hades – why would the US ever make it easy for those traitorous “emigrants” (some of whom may have never lived in the US) to escape?
Given the current political climate in the US, it is any wonder that even more people might be hoping for an exit plan rather than continued connection with a failed state? Their concerns are not being addressed and probably never will be. Calling them pathetic doesn’t help.
Maya L: “Calling them pathetic doesn’t help.” Thank you for saying this, Maya. While I may disagree with his or her opinion on the petition or any of the other issues discussed here I would never call a fellow-sufferer of US tax abuse “pathetic”. In addition, that sort of labeling does little to encourage people to adopt a different position. They might even begin to feel unwelcome here. That would be tragic.
@Maya L
I totally agree with you and I said so in another post. I have spread the word to the few Americans I know here and the only proposal they are interested in supporting is one that allows them to renounce without filing the 5 years and paying the ransom fee. They feel nothing but horror on what the US as become. They just won’t put their name out there under any circumstances unless it’s for this end goal. I certainly don’t call this group pathetic.
I have also encountered another group. a group of extreme indifference. They are not fearless of the USA at all. They are logical and know that the US has limited powers in their foreign country, no collection assistance in the UK and they just don’t think, live, breathe this every day. They go about their normal business as usual. These may or may not sign the petition but have no urgency to do so.
All we can do is keep spreading the word with bashing each other. We get enough of that from the USG and the complaince industry.
sorry i meant to say without bashing each other but i am sure people got the picture.
Many have also had disappointment after disappointment with this stuff and just don’t trust the government anymore.
I signed the petition, with a pseudonym, voting state “none” and this cheery little message:
Like most Canadians who happen to have US citizenship by birth, I have no intention of ever being compliant with US taxes, and there is nothing the US government can do about it. So you might as well save yourself the effort and change the law to reflect reality.
I believe USCA’s “Battle 1 and Battle 2” have been misunderstood. The label of “pathetic” does not come from that discussion.
What is being pointed out is the fact that AmericansAbroad/Accidentals/HomelandersAnd Abroad/Duals – whoever – are in battle with each other. On two fronts.
First, between those who are doing something and those who are not and secondly, between those who are tax compliant (largely Homelanders Abroad) and those who are not.
In the first case, it is difficult to understand the lack of support generally, and in the case of the petition, all that is asked is a signature. For people who are giving up a lot of time and effort, for others to refuse to do this, is incomprehensible.
In the second case, one can see this playing out in the different approaches taken by ACA, DA etc. One definitely can get a feel that those who have been compliant do not really feel the need to address non-compliance but are interested in carve-outs (for themselves). They do not deal with the plight of those who are not compliant, for whatever reason.
If anything, almost all “Americans” agree that Accidentals do not belong in the government battle at all and there are serious efforts being made (particularly in France) to provide a solution. I don’t know any “American Abroad” who feels the need to or actually does battle with Accidentals. All those that I know think this particular group is the least deserving of the gross policies of the U.S. govt.
@Nononymous
Brilliant! Thanks for giving them the one-finger salute!
Nononymous: What Bubblebustin said …. ditto! Well done!
@Nononymous
Well said, I come across this a lot, when I say I know people affected, i don’t mean I know many. I know a few accidentals, conversation never came up between us until this Fatca nonsense started. and I know a few dual UK/US citizens. All have done nothing except me. I am the only one who has renounced. Some have a US birth place and others don’t. and it’s not a case of not wanting to sign the petition in some cases, they just aren’t keeping abreast of developments, living their lives not thinking about this with the safe knowledge that there is little the USA can do to them from here. These aren’t whales. and they don’t realise the efforts being done by others.
I don’t know about anyone else but I have been told off by my spouse for even bringing the petition up and campaigning for signatures from people we know. and he thinks it’s time I move on and forget about this. He simply does not want to hear about it anymore.
ONLY THREE DAYS LEFT
@UK Rose
I bore my Canadian-only spouse with this, but only in revenge because my spouse bores me with things equally irrelevant to my life.
It really is true, this has near-zero impact on me. The worst thing that’s happened was that I lied to a bank once (and for accounts that were not reportable anyway). It felt a bit weird, for about a day. But I keep at it here and elsewhere because over the past five years the conversation has slowly moved in the direction of intelligent, aware non-compliance.
If we just look at Canada, rather than Switzerland or some other countries where banking access is an issue, the long-term dual citizens and accidentals hurt by US tax compliance have generally hurt themselves, either by thinking they needed to be honest with the American government, or being told by “professionals” that they are at risk for not doing so. (Insert usual disclaimer about US financial ties, etc. – if you emigrate mid-career with a bunch of US assets, or don’t have a second citizenship, it’s a very different situation.) The more we can educate folks to continue saying no to compliance, the better for all of us.
“The more we can educate folks to continue saying no to compliance, the better for all of us.”
I agree entirely. On Quora the subject of CBT comes up fairly regularly and I have frequently suggested that telling the US to go pound sand might be their solution, and a couple of times some of the regular compliance condors have descended upon me. “Are you seriously suggesting this person does not comply” type comments followed by warnings of the penalties and consequences.
Yes and yes again – I am seriously suggesting they tell the IRS to go to hell.