We already have Witnesses for our Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit, but are now seeking a few more. If you are a Canadian who supports the major aim of the lawsuit (to return Canadian sovereignty back to Canada) and are interested, see below:
The May 31 2017 Canada Federal Court Order gives us 60 days to comply by providing additional information to Government as part of our lawsuit.
This delay may give us time to provide to the Court additional evidence, from new witnesses, of harms caused by the Canadian FATCA IGA enabling legislation. If:
— You are a Canadian resident (and possibly a U.S. person as well) who has experienced difficulty, uncertainty, or perceived risk of personal harm, in acting as an executor of the estate of a U.S. person in Canada, or you are someone who has refused to act as an executor for the estate of a U.S. person in Canada because of the risk of harm; or
— You are a Canadian citizen and resident who the U.S. deems a U.S. citizen, and you would like to renounce your U.S. citizenship and tax citizenship, but cannot because you would have to pay a U.S. “exit tax” because of the value of your assets (see link) — or you renounced and DID pay an exit tax; or
— You are a Canadian citizen and resident and a U.S. citizen who had your bank account information turned over to CRA/IRS and the U.S. IRS has now contacted you about your account.
AND you are willing to provide a written, public (your name will be disclosed) affidavit to Canada Federal Court explaining your situation,
– please contact me at Stephen.Kish.Chair@adcs-adsc.ca
Further request:
The Federal Court order asks for a list of all specific harms caused by the Canadian FATCA IGA enabling legislation, that contradict our Canadian Charter rights and nation’s sovereignty (our Claim) that have been or are certain to be experienced by our three Plaintiffs but also by “anyone else” (i.e., I interpret this to mean other Canadian residents).
We already have Witness affidavits detailing harms that cannot be disclosed publicly at the present time. But if you have experienced a harm or know that you will experience a harm related to the above legislation, that you suspect that we might not have addressed, AND ARE A CANADIAN CITIZEN AND RESIDENT WILLING TO FILE A WRITTEN AFFIDAVIT TO FEDERAL COURT THAT WILL DISCLOSE YOUR NAME, then please contact me.
From a practical point of view that I have to deal with, making suggestions is fine, but we need to provide the Court with written affidavits of harm in which your name will be disclosed. If you can’t disclose, perhaps you know someone who might. The time opportunity for this is short.
@Karen – thanks. I got fired up by thinking for ten minutes maybe it could get written into the IGA, thus requiring banks to accept it. I don’t think any bank in the UK would accept anything other than a CLN, unless it was in the IGA. Their idea of avreasonable explanation is “the dog ate my CLN and I’m waiting for a replacement which I will bring to you pronto as soon as received.”
Self-documented relinquishment does seem to allow a non-US-born person to say ‘no not a USC’ truthfully if asked, though – for instance, if applying for investments or for a US visa – applications where all applicants are routinely asked the question.
I think I might put that suggestion to my offspring.
Chances are they’ll never get asked by a bank, having no indicia.
Hmm. Thanks.
My experience with the UK banking system was I got asked about my status, unlike others I did receive a Fatca letter on an existing account, a few decades old account and one that I opened with a UK passport.
Thus I found about CBT and Fbar through Fatca. When asked I said no I am not a US citizen for tax purposes. I truly thought I was answering the question correctly. i did not know about CBT and believed as a dual outside the US, that I was not a US citizen for tax purposes. This conversation took place on the phone with my bank.
Then it was told to fill out the forms from online and send back. When I went to look at the forms, that’s when i realised that all US citizens were defined as Tax citizens.
I called back for clarity and was told that if the account holder can provide us with adequate explanation and supporting documentation, we may be able to amend their US status if they have US indicia.
what suppoting documents I asked, and was told the foreign passport or id and a CLN or an adequate explanation as to why one did not receive US citizenship at birth. They were thus assuming with a US place of birth, you were a US citizen.
I never got this far in the process. I renounced immediately and then was able to certify no.
To this day, I am not sure why I was asked at this particular bank because none of the other banks that I have accounts at asked. this bank did hold the highest balances though.
@UKRose- “To this day, I am not sure why I was asked at this particular bank because none of the other banks that I have accounts at asked.”
It might have to do with the bank’s systems, and what customer data they kept on file. Some banks, such as HSBC, might have routinely stored birthplace information, if available; others might not even have had a field for birthplace information before FATCA made it necessary.
@iota
I think you’re right about the banks data. I asked why my account was identified as possibly being a US account when I spoke to the Fatca assistant on the number. and they said it would have had data with any of these indications, US passport, US address, US place of birth, US telephone number and funds coming and going from the US. So I should have had one of these indications. The only one I had was the US place of birth so it must have been recorded at some stage and came up in a search of their records. This bank wasn’t HSBC though but probably had a similar policy.
@Karen
That’s a point I’ve made before. You don’t need to prove loss of citizenship to the US government, you just need to prove it to banks so you’re not reported under FATCA.
And by “prove” I really mean “convince” – tell them whatever story you need to. If you have a US birthplace, say that your father was a diplomat and you never had US citizenship. There’s a limit to how far they’re willing or able to check your story.
@Nononymous – that may be so in Canada. In the UK, if you were born in the US you need to send in a CLN or a signed W9.
They don’t need to verify anything. They just need a W9 or a copy of a CLN to put in your file.
@nononymous
Confirmed here as well: they want a piece of paper so they can cover their asses, not an explanation.
@Iota….in the UK some banks, bank look alikes, FI’s will accept a statutory declaration affirming relinquishment. By way of example a person is naturalised which is a relinquishing act. They affirm same before a notary.
Some UK FI’s will not accept same but some will. Getting a statutory decleration is far cheaper than a CLN.
@George – thanks – useful to know.
I said: “They don’t need to verify anything. They just need a W9 or a copy of a CLN to put in your file.”
Thinking about it, in the light of George’s comment, I should have said “They need documentation to put in your file. Which presumably would cover the diplomat’s child situation. I expect all US-born children of diplomats have long since assembled their evidence of non-USness.
Thanks to those who responded. Ironically, the US Code offers a fairly workable definition of an accidental: born dual, less than 10 years in the USA, less that 5 years of the last 15 in the USA.
Spiro includes those who left the US as children, which means born in the USA. Having just binge-watched a bunch of “Ambiguously Gay Duo” cartoons, I had to laugh at Spiro’s phrases “generous in the front”…”sticky in the back”…”frictionless exit”…
I’m intrigued by the child-of-diplomats situation. Would the State Dept. have to agree, or could one declare one’s own country (think Sealand) and retroactively appoint one’s parents as the honorary consuls of it?
PS. And left before the age of 18 1/2. You’d think the 10-year rule would cover that, but no the kid might have lived in the USA from age 15 to 20, let us say, in which case no dice.
“Only naturalized USCs are non-accidental. They’re the only ones who did it deliberately.”
True. Furthermore, they didn’t obtain that status by living outside the US.
‘Could you explain the difference between slavery and a “colossal case of coercive control”.’
Hey I can. US law prohibits slavery but compels a colossal case of coercive control.
“(how does U.S. law apply to people outside the USA anyway?)”
Partly by treaty, partly by IGA, partly … should I post another link to a YouTube A-bomb video?
@Zlaod,
Re:
Not likely, IMO, unless you can figure out how to get your invented country and its consuls on the State Department’s quarterly Blue List (aka Diplomatic List) which was in effect at the time you were born. Doubt a financial institution would take one’s word for it. Another potential pitfall- if they google the country and find it never existed.
Status of person; Definition of foreign diplomatic officer, 8 CFR 101.3(a) (1); (2).
The issue of diplomatic brats is an odd one. I did some searching a while back and the only things I found concerned diplomats (presumably from non-first-world countries) fraudulently obtaining US citizenship for their kids. It’s pretty easy – just take the birth certificate and apply for an SSN then years later apply for a passport, and don’t mention the parents’ status. Not surprisingly, the Social Security folks don’t cross-reference the Blue List.
What I found absolutely nothing about was how one proves NOT being a US citizen due to parents with diplomatic status. Obviously you could document this with family records, old dip passports etc. but nowhere did I find anything about how it could be done to a bank’s satisfaction to avoid FATCA despite a US birthplace.
@Pacifica777
Oh snap!
It is indeed the case that children of diplomats born in the US are the only people who do not acquire US citizenship. They do get a green card, however.
https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/other-ways-get-green-card/green-card-person-born-foreign-diplomat-united-states/green-card-person-born-united-states-foreign-diplomat
Perhaps their status is mentioned on their birth certificate.
I wonder if there is a market for CLNs yet.
I’ve personally fantasized about a fake ID: all the same info but my birthplace.
Again,
The purpose of this post is to seek, during the next few weeks, additional witnesses for a Canadian FATCA IGA lawsuit in Federal Court.
Note that in the revised post we are also seeking executors or would-be executors of an estate of a US person.
If you cannot be a witness, perhaps you know someone who might be willing.
This aspect IS a real harm to my family, to me, and to others such as my family. My US-deemed (but never considered by me) automatically acquired US citizenship son, as he was born in Canada to two US citizens the year before we became Canadian citizens cannot, cannot renounce that same US-deemed USC because of a *lack of requisite mental capacity*. The very thing that keeps me awake in the wee hours of the night is what will be regarding the modest estate that I will leave to my son and to my (renounced and CLN-in-hand) daughter. My will provides for a discretionary trust for my special needs adult child. (In Alberta, my estate through a discretionary trust set up to take effect upon my death to distribute seamlessly from what that comprises, as well as my son’s Canadian Registered Disability Plan (RDSP), will provide the means for my son’s support after I am gone. Unlike the Henson Trust in other provinces, he will not be eligible for Alberta provincial disability benefits as his portion of my estate (the value of my home, my RRIF, my TFSA, etc.) will exceed the limit for his Alberta disability benefits. My son’s benefit from my will be assessed by the Office of the Alberta Public Guardian and Trustee (OPGT) to make sure he will be properly looked after from what I leave. Will the trust company who will administer my son’s discretionary trust, a foreign financial institution, then enter into requirement for US tax and reporting compliance? Questions of that and other consequences are with me every day.
In fact, I have had those questions since 2012 when I posted this: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/01/28/estate-planing-as-us-persons-living-abroad-what-should-the-instructions-be-for-us-still-connected-in-any-way-to-the-us/
The long-form birth certificate will identify the place of birth of my son’s, at the time of his birth, USC parents. Just who would I with good conscience pass on what is, right now, what I live with and worry about? No government representative nor the Office of the Alberta Public Guardian and Trustee (OPGT) have answered the questions I have.
************
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2017/05/09/1313-in-federal-register-1484-in-nics/comment-page-5/#comment-7884540
The Canadian FATCA litigation says we reject the Canadian government definition, that we are Canadian citizens who should have the same Charter rights as any other Canadian — that *A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian*; that we should not be deemed second-class to any other Canadian citizen because of the place of our birth or the place of birth of our children’s parent(s) or the place of birth of children born to Canadian parents in the USA who left that country with their Canadian parent(s) as children. Discrimination by national origin.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/fatca/comment-page-130/#comment-7612681
…
In the response I received,
Sympathy from The Honourable Diane Lebouthillier, P.C., M.P., Minister of National Revenue is not enough for me and other families like mine — or the sum total of *US Persons in Canada*.
I want to know now what The Honourable Bill Morneau, P.C., M.P., Minister of Finance, is working on regarding the US-Canada Tax Treaty in regard to, among other issues, the Registered Education Savings Plan and the Registered Disability Savings Plan – how soon will we see a result? Until then, will the Minister of Finance or the Minister of Revenue issue a warning so anyone with any kind of *US taint* will not in the first place enter into these investments that were intended to benefit ALL Canadians? Will there be a statement issued that *All Canadians* does not include *Americans who happen to reside in Canada* even though they took their first breath on Canadian soil? We tainted *US Persons in Canada* need clarification that our Liberal Prime Minister’s pre-election statement, *A Canadian is A Canadian is A Canadian* is not inclusive after all.
I also want to know from the Prime Minister of Canada why my Canadian-born son’s (and other Canadian *Accidental Americans*) Canadian rights do not take priority over any US-deemed US citizenship. How can a person who has never lived a day of his or her life in the US and has had no benefit from the US, but because of lack of requisite mental capacity, be so entrapped into complex and costly US compliance by the barriers placed by the US, including the fact that such a person’s Canadian’s parents, guardians or trustees cannot act on such a person’s behalf — especially in light of the consequences of US citizenship-based taxation? There was an amendment offered that the Conservatives and now the Liberals ignore, thrown to the winds, government officials never even attempting to negotiate the rights of Canadians with the US, the government who our own government representatives now seemingly take their orders from without question or negotiation on behalf of their own country’s citizens.
…
I wish that someone would fix this website to make it easier to navigate the comments. Specifically, you should be able to see many more than 25 comments on a page. 100 would be more reasonable, or even 250, or all of them on one page.
Also it would be great to be able to click on a page number (page 1,2,3,4, etc.) to quickly access a page without having to click through every page of “newer” and “older” comments to get to where you want to be.
Some of us copy the posts and comments and read them offline, and this would make it much easier.
Just a request if someone has the time and desire to fix this.
@ Pachyderm,
I have a suggestion to get to a specific page of comments on a threads.
Go to the url bar at the top of the screen.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2017/06/02/seeking-a-few-additional-witnesses-willing-to-file-affidavit-for-canadian-fatca-iga-lawusit/comment-page-4/#comment-7905207
Right now we’re on page 4 of the comments. Say you want to go to page 2 of the comments.
(1) Delete the last segment (/#comment-790527).
(2) In the segment before it, change the comment page number to the page you want to go to. Change “comment-page 4” to “comment-page-2.” (This segment should now be the last segment of the url.) Click and it will bring you there.
@Patricia Moon
Patricia Moon says
June 5, 2017 at 12:02 am
“I MUST be misunderstanding you. You cannot possibly be suggesting that we accept the notion that the harm from the FATCA IGA is “self-inflicted” since Canada would not collect from certain individuals? ”
Consider this context and please correct me where I may be wrong.
If I do absolutely nothing upon receiving the famous letter from the bank,I can assume that my private financial information will ultimately land on the IRS doorstep. I assume also that I can continue to open and operate new/old Canadian mutual funds and reg investment vehicles and savings accounts. If I forgo going to any US legal vultures and ignore the IRS since we have happily ignored each other for decades,what can they do to me . I see a problem only when one decides, for one reason or another, to get involved with the two fearmongers above. Am I wrong up to this point ?
I don’t believe in making tax returns to a foreign country for services that I don’t receive and for a citzenship that I don’t recognize .
Every time you mention fear , I replace it with anger. It is a sick country ruling a spineless world.
If you are going to argue my points as giving in to tyranny ,you may be right,but full IRS enforcement of US tax laws has long way to go.
The cause is just .All I am saying is that there is always another point of view,rightlly or wrongily.
I believe the world of the accident American includes not just born US, but also foreign born,as well as, naturalized- US ,as children ,who moved abroad. Accidentals comprise more people than you think.
@Robert Ross
“I see a problem only when one decides, for one reason or another, to get involved with the two fearmongers above. Am I wrong up to this point ?”
Nope. You are not wrong.