WITNESS SEARCH UPDATE FOR CANADIAN FATCA IGA LAWSUIT:
WE STILL SEEK MORE CANADIAN WITNESSES:
Have you experienced marital stress or breakup, or medical or psychiatric illness because Canada turned you and your family over to a foreign country — or because you were afraid and entered into IRS compliance and suffered harm, or because you are in “hiding” and can’t afford to be IRS compliant or to renounce? Be a witness.
No single witness will be “perfect” from a litigation point of view. We will be seeking more witnesses (almost) right up to the time of submission of court documents. Your specific situation, that we cannot predict, might have unique characteristics that would be helpful in the lawsuit.
If you cannot be a witness, please tell a friend who you think might be interested.
— If you are interested in becoming a witness You will describe your harm in a written affidavit which will be made public and you can contact me at stephen.kish.chair@adcs-adsc.ca See our website at www.adcs-adsc-ca
FOR THOSE CANADIANS WHO ALREADY VOLUNTEERED: Unless you have already been informed by me or by our legal team that you will not be a witness, there is still the possibility — or (for some) likelihood — that you will be asked to be a witness. I’m sorry but I cannot estimate the time it will take for our legal team to get back to you with their decision. This is because they need to “mesh” the characteristics of all of the necessary witnesses and testimonies with the actual detailed submission that contains the entirety of their evidence, which are all still evolving. Please be patient in our getting back to you with a decision. Thank you for your help.
We’ve crossed over a hundred times in 30 years- no issues. Most of this is detailed on the ‘your experience ‘ thread.
last crossing November 2013
major confrontation / discussion about just what exactly my citizenship was
was told to go the post office at our destination which was long beach Washington and get a passport application process started
we went to the grocery store and bought a six pack of beer and went to the beach instead
I have not since this experience nor will I ever again cross the border into “that country”
if they do not want my tourist dollars there is a whole world out there more than willing to accept them
I haven’t had any trouble crossing the border before or after getting my CLN. However, I was more nervous before getting the CLN. Things can easily change for the worse in the future, however. I’ve heard of a number of people who have had trouble crossing the US border. The only reason I cross is to see relatives who are too elderly to travel to Canada.
If crossing the US border gets more difficult, I’m happy to stay in Canada. Except maybe for exploring the rest of the non-US world. The mountains of Washington state can be seen from my windows. That will be enough for me.
@Tom Alciere
“Orthodox Libertarian Extremist” for US Senate.
Congratulations!
http://tomalciere.us/
Right on, Tom! Best of luck to you!
I have personally never had a problem cuz I haven’t gone into the US since the fall of 1999 when I took my children to Seattle so that they could meet their great – grandmother. But I have a funny story, strange but true! I have a sibling who does not have dual citizenship and crosses the border all the time without a passport using a permanent residence card. Never hassled! My sibling has a child who ISN’T a US citizen. My sibling has never been hassled about the permanent residence card, but was hassled about the child’s Canadian passport. The border guard insisted that the child needed an US passport. The sibling told him that the child wasn’t a US citizen and pointed out to him that the parent wasn’t able to transfer citizenship having been in Canada since the age of 7 and the child’s other parent was born in St. Pierre Miquelon. Another guard joined the conversation and pointed out that my sibling was actually correct. The other guard then back paddle saying that they should apply because the child’s grandparents were citizens. The sibling just looked at him and said “I don’t think so.”
@ The Mom i think im in the same area as seeing the the place over the river?
anyhow was getting the CLN all that difficult? or is it just better to save the cash and not go over?
Just an FYI, I emailed to get an Loss of citizenship appointment in Vancouver. I waited two weeks to get an email back and I only have to wait two months for my appointment. Was pleasantly surprised as I thought it would be up to a year.
Respectfully suggest this thread is about getting witnesses (and related).
Recent comments fit better at:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/09/19/question/
Good morning Brockers. It’s going to be a scorcher here in my city,just south of the IRS.
Speaking of scorchers, I am surprised there has been no reaction or remarks in response to today’s Opening Post. For a minute there, I thought the words were lifted from my diary.
@ N. Diamond, thanks for the laugh.
Why don’t they just “reject” (NOT renounce) ON THEIR OWN that so-kind “offer” of unwanted citizenship and then proclaim “Sorry but no thanks, not for me — I am NOT a U.S. citizen — go away — I am Canadian”?]
it took me about a year and a half to accept and understand the above
once i did so my life once again became mine and all the related stressors related dissapeared and i was able to get on with my life
best decision ever!!!!
“…Why do Canadians, actually living permanently in Canada, having no meaningful relationship with the U.S. accept the right of the United States to impose citizenship on them without their consent? …”…
Perhaps because the US is such a powerful worldview and ideology projector and enforcer ( ex. see the work of Noam Chomsky https://chomsky.info/books ) and Canada has given that “reality” tacit, and now very explicit (enshrined in Canadian law via the IGA) endorsement. They are generating the “reality” that it is instrumental for them to sell to us.
It is hard to resist that kind of state generated demand for obedience. More would have if Canada had not given its explicit consent for the US to claim Canadian citizens as if Canadian citizenship and residence on Canadian soil meant nothing. And maybe it is the difficulty of living with uncertainty – of how far the Canadian state will/would go in order to assist the US.
I met yet another US citizen/dual in Canada yesterday. Born just over the border, with US family – sounded like they had been here a long time. Didn’t have the heart to start the FATCA conversation as they were dealing with recent loss of US family member. Didn’t get the impression that their worldview could comprehend this true state of affairs re US extraterritorial CBT, FBAR, FATCA. They were very definitely a minnow.
Don’t know what they might choose to do out of fear and anxiety, or what finding out about this situation might do to them in their current state.
@ badger
“They are generating the “reality” that it is instrumental for them to sell to us.”
It sounds like you are familiar with that now rather famous quote from the devious and arrogant Karl Rove, senior aide to George Bush.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community
I think they’re barely even bothering to sell their “reality” to us anymore … they just do what they please and ignore all whimpers of protest.
@mettlemen, I do get what you mean. In my own case, I committed a relinquishing act, a government agency agreed I had relinquished and was rather huffy that I had relinquished, lawyers were involved, George spent lots of money but a couple years later George was back to being at peace and put aside a bad time, I have a letter in a safe place, a cancelled US Passport by State that says relinquished but I have NO CLN and my name was never on any list. I did not know then a CLN even existed and I do not think my lawyer knew either then.
I am NOT doing anything else…nothing….zero….I was done….I remain done.
I can clearly remember the ‘due diligence’ interview I experienced with Stephen Kish when he was vetting me to forward my application to be a plaintiff to Joe Arvay. After many questions, he concluded with the statement that I was willfully non compliant.
I rejected that notion vehemently as it pre-supposed too many assumptions. Since I rejected any claim the USG conferred on me I stated that I could not be non compliant, willful or other wise because that concept was redundant. I was only a Canadian despite where I was born.
Fast forward to now. Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau’s legacy, whether I agreed with his other policies or not ( War Measures Act?) will always be his brilliant act of repatriation, i.e.: the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It required the collaboration of indigenous people, and all provinces and more as we all know.
The ongoing expansion we have seen in case law demonstrates what a living tree that important document has become as opposed to the decayed petrified tree of the Constitution of the USA.
Our current PM Trudeau, the sunny son of, has diminished my citizenship rights to the point where I no longer know who I am, according to him.
So this is what I want to say to him: I am a Canadian citizen and you and the previous government cannot abrogate my rights no matter how you try. Your legislative actions as well as those of the USA can never strip me of my inalienable rights and cannot diminish who I am. I am Canadian Ginny. Don’t even contemplate thinking you have any power to take that away from me. I was born long before you were a twinkle in anyone’s eyes; you and your government can be defeated in the next election.
I on the other hand will never be defeated. And you can take that to your Bank of Canada or anywhere else.
See you in court.
@Embee, thank you for that quote from within the Empire. Very useful description; “…“We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality….”…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community
And in response, we, like Canadian Ginny assert our own reality.
A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian, despite what the US Emperor and his CONs and now the Sunny Lib minions in Canada say.
The Emperor has no clothes, no matter how much the fawning bowing but kissing IGA signatories help to pretend.
From the top of my June 11 2016 Witness post:
WE STILL SEEK MORE WITNESSES:
Stephen, there are many of us, myself included, who have chosen to wilfully disobey the US/IRS mandate to play by their rules. I won’t do it. Period. But there’s no place on this site to gather together a body of people like me, people who refuse to comply. It might give some people, especially some of the ones you cite in today’s update, a bit of courage if they could read stories of people who have chosen to say “no”. Through the years I have tried to keep mental track of those who have decided to be noncompliant, but I haven’t done a very good job and there is no easy way to plug into that particular part of the Brock community. What would the admins think about having a “Just Say No” sidebar, with stories of people who will not recognize a foreign country’s authority over their lives. The sidebar could also contain strategies for self relinquishment, most of which have gotten buried in the bowels of Brock.
@No name,
I think that’s an excellent idea. Thanks for suggesting it! I’ll create a permanent page for Self-Documented Relinquishment later today.
No Name,
I think that the topic of “self-relinquishment” (without seeking “permission” from, or paying costs to, a foreign government) might increasingly become more important.
Perhaps two sidebars: 1) I said no (with the stories) and 2) Self-relinquishment of unwanted foreign citizenship? [or as Pacifica suggests above “Self-Documented Relinquishment”]
The new pages are up and in the sidebar under Important information. I made one for Just Saying No: Not Renouncing/Relinquishing Nor Complying, and one for Self-Documented Relinquishment. Thanks again, No Name, a really good idea.
Note: I use the title Self-Documented Relinquishment rather than self-relinquishment because all relinquishments are self-relinquishments (the person causes the relinquishment to exist)
@ Stephen Kish
You say self-relinquishment might become more important. Do you think being willfully non-compliant will become increasingly untenable? I think it could if there are not significant numbers of Willful Non-Coms to act as a stumbling block to US tax hegemony. I guess what I’m thinking of is the way fish shoaling acts as a defense against predators.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoaling_and_schooling
Of course this all depends on how we picture the IRS predators. Are they spear fishing or seine fishing? FATCA certainly looks like the latter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seine_fishing
The US claims me as one of its tax slaves, but it is a one sided contract that I never agreed to. My only act of “agreement” was being born, however a baby is not able to agree to anything, nor can a baby choose its location of birth.
Having been born in the USA, according to US law, my only option is to buy my freedom with a $2400 USD payment and agreeing to a “renunciation” contract, but I cannot renounce without having ever agreed, therefore I’ll never attempt it.
I also refuse to pay for my release because slavery is not only immoral, it is illegal under international law, therefore as far as I’m concerned, I’m already free, and always have been.
The only part of me I’ll offer to the US is my middle finger, no charge.
The more of us who simply refuse to recognize US claims of their ownership over us, the more likely we’ll be able to resist and end the tyranny. Those who willfully comply to US claims of ownership are only enslaving themselves and making it more difficult for the rest of us to remain free from bondage.
@Stephen, @Pacifica….as a movement and something I have stated many times, is that we must be careful on the words we use and we must be wise on word choice.
Case in point the use of “dual national” or “having clinging nationality.” One is negative and one is positive. It is FAR easier to ask government and the public to help Canadians who have undesired “clinging US nationality” than asking them to help those with “dual US nationality.”
I hope that ADCS legal is careful in this regard in the litigation.
In regards to the immediate topic at hand, I think there are two subcatagories and they need terms.
Example A. I committed a bonafide relinquishing act ten years ago with the intention of relinquishing my US nationality.
I put together a folder and documented the act I performed and also have a contemporaneous letter from my attorney confirming what occurred.
I am “undocumented” with respect to a CLN, so what am I?
Example B. “@MiddleFinger” is a Canadian Citizen with maple syrup in the veins. MF does not recognize any citizenship other than their Canadian Passport Citizenship. So what is that person, is that a self documented relinquisher?
How and with what terms do we differentiate between those that played by the US rules solely with respect to performing the “dirty deed” but refuse to pay $2,350 to document same compared to those who refuse to pay $2,350 to get rid of something they never asked for?
I “think/thunk” that both examples have different but equally important civil liberty issues both respect to US law and non-US law.
@Middle Finger
I like your attitude. US tax compliance would create only an administrative relationship for you with the US.
I don’t particularly like the term “Accidental American” myself, as I now think from a practical POV, “Administrative American” better reflects the reality of your situation.