UPDATE: Saturday, November 21, 2015
Please see the following post from John Richardson which explains how the FATCA IGA and the CBT lawsuits have different donor bases as well as a specific request regarding donations to ADCS.
As posted today by John Richardson at citizenshiptaxation.wordpress.com:
The #CBTLawsuit rollout is beginning – we need YOUR support
This post is to:
– announce the “roll out” of a lawsuit filed in the United States
– against the Government of the United States
– to strike down the most egregious aspects of U.S. “place of birth taxation”
– and provide relief for those who reside outside the United States and are unjustly, unfairly and unlawfully burdened by the attempt of the United States to impose its laws on the residents and/or citizens of other nations.The lawsuit will require a large amount of funding including an immediate injection of $25,000.
For those who only want to contribute the funding are invited to go here. Those who want to understand what we are doing read on.
I would say I’m more in the PatCanadian club of sticking with ADCS (hoping to donate soon when possible). To me, the entire USA is just a bottomless pit of “legal” bullshit; a massive “Legal” system which may or may not have anything to do with a “Justice” system. I’d go so far as to calling it a “Lawyers’ Full Employment Act” that benefits only lawyers (and compliance condors). If ADCS is unsuccessful, I’m going quickly towards non-FATCA reportable physical gold as a safety net from the US bastards and dropping everything else.
@Dash1729
That “due diligence” is a legal opinion, and was precisely what I asked Trish about, whether the funds were going to that.
Her answer:
“it’s my understanding that a legal opinion will be solidified and that the $25k counts toward the overall cost-not isolated like the pre-stage of the CCCF-ADCS process.Hope that makes sense.”
‘To me, the entire USA is just a bottomless pit of “legal” bullshit; a massive “Legal” system which may or may not have anything to do with a “Justice” system.’
It’s neither. When a circuit court rules that filers of tax returns have to fabricate social security numbers, it’s neither a legal system nor a justice system. When trial courts rule (along with the IRS) that filers have to commit perjury, it’s neither a legal system nor a justice system. Though it is case law.
Old joke: If the facts are on your side, pound the facts. If the facts aren’t on your side but the law is, pound the law. If neither the facts nor the law are on your side, pound the table.
Current reality: If the facts aren’t on your side, make up different facts. If you don’t do a good enough job of making up facts, don’t worry, the court will make some up for you. If the law isn’t on your side, make up different laws. If you don’t do a good enough job of making up laws, don’t worry, the court will make some up for you. Well, it’s this way if you’re a US Department of Justice lawyer opposing a refund suit by a victim of the IRS’s identity thieves, but if you’re a different kind of lawyer all bets are off.
Excellent news. Attack this from more then one angle. I think the timing is perfect. We have to be ready in case we lose the FATCA law suit. We don’t want to waste years waiting to find out about the court result. I said from the beginning I thought a CBT suit first, would have made more sense then a FACTA suit coming first. A successful CBT law suit would kill two birds with one stone as there would be no use for FACTA for Americans residing abroad with RBT. Oh well, no need to beat a dead horse. Great development!
Re: Extraterrestrial.
I’m not sure the US lays claim to the entire universe although they probably would if they thought they could get away with it. What they do claim is the right to tax someone anywhere in the universe if they deem them to be a “US person” (and in the process punish all things “foreign”). Heck, they even describe a person who is not one of them as an “alien”.
Wonderful news! This lawsuit has the the potential to tackle the sick tree at its very root….
As I write, a songthrush has started singing nearby, which seems seems to be saying “Onward and Upwards”!
Very best wishes for a thorough and successful suit, and thank you so much.
I will continue to support the excellent and substantive ADCS anti-FATCA lawsuit and efforts in Canada – and I am no longer a US citizen-serf claimed as property of the US, but given those organizing it, I believe that this effort will also be a thoughtful endeavour that that is not undertaken lightly.
We can’t all renounce (including minors and those deemed legally incompetent due to a disability), we can’t all lay low (ex. those with no US birthplace, but with US status via parentage), and some may feel compelled to fight tooth and nail in order not to be forced to jump through the considerable hoops of fire that are necessary to give up what is after all their legal birthright in order to get relief from US extraterritorial incursions.
There is a need to force the US to loosen its stranglehold on those living ‘abroad’ and their families, and also to force it to let those go who choose to renounce, without the substantial jeopardy of the exit tax ransom fee and the unconscionable $2350. USD head tax (subject to change anytime as it has already). People should not be held hostage to a US imposed fee in order to buy freedom and peace of mind for themselves and their families.
I hope that those who intend or are forced to retain US citizenship will not abandon funding and supporting the ADCS anti-FATCA lawsuit in Canada though.
Badger. I would think those with ‘US via parentage’ but no birth place would be the group that finds it easiest to lie low.
in addition to my thoughts above;
I can see how this could be complementary to the anti-FATCA efforts since for various compelling and substantive reasons, we cannot all renounce in order to receive relief (ex. I paid a very high price in accounting and legal fees – though NO US tax was assessed/owed -in order to do so in the manner demanded by the US) – and the US is making it more and more difficult for those abroad to sever even their only lingering symbolic or vestigial US connections. FATCA is an effort to enforce and make workable the enforcement of US extraterritorial CBT. This latest effort may also provide extra pressure to demonstrate to the US why FATCA is wrong and why extraterritorial ‘place of birth’ and ‘US parentage’ based taxation is unworkable, and infringes on the human rights of individuals, and the sovereignty and autonomy of the countries where they have been born and or reside – OUTSIDE the US.
The US does not care why FATCA, CBT and FBAR are wrong, and will not care about our pain, or even what is ethical, but it will only act to modify the current state of affairs if it is forced to – and has to pay some kind of price to try and retain and enforce CBT, FATCA and FBAR. As long as FATCA costs only the rest of the world, the US will be content to continue to force US extraterritorial CBT on everyone in this world, with a very broad definition of what people and assets it defines as US property.
Why should anyone HAVE to lie low? (Though my son was born in Canada and never lived a day in the US or had any benefit from the US, he would be one who *can lie low*. *Should be* impossible — my son’s accounts were included, all i’s dotted and all t’s crossed in my FBARs to the US.)
@Duke, yes, for now I think so too. And if I was in that situation, I would not come forward.
Might the US get around to try enforcing that part of CBT as well somehow – and might children outside the US dealing with local institutions while handling their parent’s ‘foreign’ estates or via wielding Power of Attorney over a US status parent’s ‘foreign’ local assets might it come to light and be a problem in dealing with our non-US banks who are colluding to enforce FATCA? Some people who don’t have a US birthplace but only a USstatus parent have already gotten US passports, or a parent has registered their birth with a US embassy or consulate. So not all of those without a US birthplace will be able to lie low.
I’ll never forget the Canadian born child of Canadian dual status parents who had entered the 2011 OVDI to try and satisfy the US and stood up in a DA US tax session in Toronto to talk about how she was being treated by the IRS.
I worry that though I have relinquished, and have a CLN, my child might be forced to prove that I was no longer a UStaxableperson and that they did not inherit US status to my local Canadian financial institutions when dealing with my estate. One has to open an estate acct, and I think our death certificates and wills, etc. state our birthplace. I’ll have to check how much of my US information might show my US birthplace for purposes of dealing with my estate.
Perhaps a low probability, but then some of what has transpired seemed unlikely years ago as well.
@calgary, I agree. People should not have to do that as their only recourse or defense. And it wouldn’t work for everyone without a US birthplace.
@JaneB, imo a very insightful comment that you made: ” For those of us who don’t want the American citizenship imposed on us because of a parent or a birthplace, it’s far more important to establish that we have the same rights as any other citizen of the country in which we live. “
@badger
can you direct me to a site or a link or a way to read up on this? thanks!
@Tricia;
I witnessed it firsthand at the DA US tax information session. The young adult said she came forward on her own initiative to try and become compliant – and sort out her situation in the manner the IRS was demanding during the fall of 2011. She came forward and entered the OVDI though her parents didn’t think it was a good idea/advised against it I got the impression that she was Canadian born of 2 US status parents. She bitterly said that the IRS were “not nice at all” about it despite her trying to show good faith by coming forward in the noisiest manner to become compliant. She did not know what to do then, and was sorry she had entered the OVDI. She was so young that it seemed unlikely that she had much probability of owing any US tax – it was the FBAR situation (and possibly the “foreign trust”) that was likely the jeopardy.
There was also another person there who mentioned that they also had entered the OVDI – to their lasting regret.
The DA in charge of the meeting did not offer up any solution, nor any info about the Taxpayer Advocate – an audience member alerted those assembled to the existence of Nina Olson and how the NTA might be able to help. I don’t know what happened to the young adult.
I was disgusted at the conduct of the DA Canada (Toronto) reps in charge of the session – who were exhorting us to get out the vote for Obama – and said it wasn’t a good time to pursue lobbying Washington re the OVDI, FBAR threat and punishment campaign of the IRS because of the upcoming election.
They did not offer up information or aid for those who couldn’t afford help to come into compliance, those who already had been scared into OVDI, etc.
I will never forget that meeting and their tone and behaviour. I can still seem them in my mind’s eye sitting up at the front – complacent about the situation even as the fear and anxiety was palpable in the packed room. I am disgusted by the DA.
@WhiteKat, and @ JaneB, re; “…it’s far more important to establish that we have the same rights as any other citizen of the country in which we live. ”
Yes, the laws of our home where we actually reside, are citizens and where many were actually born should rule supreme against any foreign laws imposed extraterritorially by the US – or any other country. Canada cannot afford to allow other countries to dictate limitations on the human and civil rights its citizens and residents enjoy, and not carve out second and third class treatment based on someone’s birthplace or parentage or any other citizenship they might have acquired.
That is an important basic national principle that also would apply to the US demand that young males register for the draft – and any other arrogant ideas they might come up with in future to control people around the globe from afar.
@Badger re: “… and any other arrogant ideas they might come up with in future to control people around the globe from afar”.
Exactly. Half way measures, like killing CBT (as wonderful as this would be) won’t change the fact that ultimately you are still US’s person if the country where you actually live, acquiesces with this principle.
‘I’m not sure the US lays claim to the entire universe although they probably would if they thought they could get away with it. What they do claim is the right to tax someone anywhere in the universe if they deem them to be a “US person”’
In the 1970’s they told a US astronaut that it was OK to file late because anyone who was outside of the US on April 15th got an automatic 2 month extension of time to file.
I read recently that they no longer provide that automatic extension due to physical absence but only for residence outside the US.
‘Heck, they even describe a person who is not one of them as an “alien”.’
Every country does that. Science fiction writers borrowed the word but the original meaning was related to difference of either citizenship or nationality, I’m not sure which.
https://adcsovereignty.wordpress.com/2015/11/21/the-adcsovereignty-fatca-lawsuit-is-separate-from-the-cbt-lawsuit-different-donor-base/
Conflicted about your donations? You don’t need to be. Please read John Richardson’s newest post above.
I am thrilled to see the introduction of a lawsuit against CBT! From the beginning I have held that CBT is the origin and central issue of our plight.
It may be an old saw but I agree with Phil that without CBT this blog would not exist. FATCA would not have received the slightest notice by our community and our governments would never have become involved in IGAs. The countless hours, days and weeks of energy expended in this fight and the endless fear for our financial lives and futures would never have occurred.
Our pain and suffering over FATCA is laid solely at the feet of CBT. It must end! The first small steps in that direction have now been taken.
To the Directors of the new ADCT, thank you!
@Muzzled, re: “I may be an old saw but I agree with Phil that without CBT this blog would not exist” and ” I have held that CBT is the origin and central issue of our plight. ”
I agree with your first statement above, as this is self evident, but not the second.
CBT is not the root of MY problem as a Canadian Living In Canada. Your mileage may vary.
The problem from my perspective as someone with no desire to be considered ‘American’, is a combination of unwanted American citizenship and a Canadian government not willing to put its money where its mouth is and prove that “A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian”.
Killing CBT won’t solve the problem of second class citizenship in Canada – the country where we actually live. Killing CBT won’t break the chains of US personhood – USA is still free to dream up whatever nasties it wants and apply them to its person’s living abroad. Just because so far, the nasty has been CBT, doesn’t mean it ends there. Maybe in future, when the next dart is thrown towards US persons living outside USA, there will be a new website fighting a new fight.
Our true freedom from being persons owned by the USA, must be found from within the country that we call home, not from within one we do not.
Just my 2 cents as a Canadian Living in Canada.
Substitute Canadian with Australian, German, Swede, etc, etc, and my comment above still applies. People need to be more concerned with the rights and freedoms they have in the countries they actually live in, rather than worrying about the extraterritorial laws of a foreign country. I am hoping that the Canadian fight to be treated as Canadians only while living in Canada will encourage people in other countries to take their own governments to task, as this is an important principle for all peoples in all countries. CBT is not the main problem, it is a symptom of the disease, imo.
@badger
Thanks for that (horrid) story. I am guessing the meeting was a number of years ago. It still strikes me as unbelievable the IRS would have processed such minnows never mind treat people who are trying to do the right thing with such disrespect. I could go on about it but….
@Tricia, yes, that horror story was from spring 2012, but unfortunately there may be no resolution for some of the people who were attendance then even now – or the path to resolution of some kind cost them substantial sums in accounting and legal fees and LCUs (Just Me’s ‘Life Credit Units’), or they are still lying low, sleepless and anxious, wondering what path to take and what further horrors are in store from the US government. There were several in the DA audience who were seniors, lower income, etc. who could not afford the services that the accounting/tax professional on the panel was recommending. No-one knew or spoke of the ability to do a quiet disclosure or just to be compliant going forward as an option. To be clear, the event was not only attended by official DA believers.
@badger
The IRS was warning against quiet disclosure as early as 2011, my earliest encounter with the IRS. Then IRS Commissioner Doug Shulman scared enough people into OVDI by stating:
“As I’ve said all along, the goal is to get people back into the U.S. tax system,” Shulman said. “Combating international tax evasion is a top priority for the IRS. We have additional cases and banks under review. The situation will just get worse in the months ahead for those hiding assets and income offshore. This new disclosure initiative is the last, best chance for people to get back into the system.”
Streamlined, as inadequate as it is, would not have come to be if it weren’t for the blood spilled by these early sacrificial lambs. Unfortunately, I don’t see any truth and reconciliation in our future – just another kick in the rear on the way out.