Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

Posted on by Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 162 Comments

If you are a Canadian citizen, you have the opportunity, and IMO the responsibility, to vote in the October 19 Canadian federal election. Certainly if you reside in Canada, and (with some restrictions I won’t go into here) even if you don’t.

This is Canadians’ opportunity to pass judgment on whether the government of Stephen Harper has stood up for Canada, for Canadian values, for Canada’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and for Canadian citizens. And to decide whether maybe some other party should be given the chance to govern our country, for the better (we all hope).

My personal advice is to vote for anyone other than the Conservative in your riding, either the candidate most likely to defeat the Conservative candidate, or if you can’t figure out who that might be, perhaps the party leading in the national polls as of today (the Liberals) and hence with the most credible chance of getting more seats than the Conservatives and hence forming our next government. Or, if you have an incumbent MP who isn’t a Conservative and whom you respect and like, vote for that incumbent.

If you can’t bring yourself to vote for anyone other than a Conservative, but are appalled at Stephen Harper’s idea of governance of Canada, take former Progressive Conservative Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador Danny Williams’ advice, and just stay at home and don’t vote this time around. Ignore that absurd recommendation by the Globe and Mail, which said the Conservatives deserve another mandate but Harper doesn’t. In our parliamentary system you can’t make that distinction, it makes no sense. Harper is the Conservative leader, if the Conservatives really wanted to they could have deposed him but didn’t, and trying to say the Conservatives aren’t to blame for Harper’s style of governance is utterly ridiculous. They’re all joined at the hip.

But VOTE. If you’re eligible to vote in this election and don’t, IMO you’ve lost any right to complain about the outcome.

I was born and educated in the US. After completing my post-graduate education, I entered Canada on a temporary work permit, moving to Canada because of the Vietnam war. Shortly after unpacking, I applied for landed immigrant status. A few months later I received in the mail an induction notice from the US Army; I drew a peace symbol on it in felt marker pen and mailed it back. As a result, I was indicted and a warrant was issued for my arrest (both were quashed in 1977 by the Carter amnesty). I became a Canadian citizen in 1975. In 1976, for the US Bicentennial I wrote a political letter to Henry Kissinger, then Secretary of State. In it I mentioned that I had "renounced" (I didn't then know of "relinquish") my US citizenship on becoming a Canadian, explaining in several pages my reasons for leaving the US. I also mentioned the fact that on my mother's side I am a descendant of a soldier who fought in Washington's army during the US rebellion, but now I was declaring my personal independence from the US and rejoining the British Commonwealth. Within six months, I received by mail a CLN recognizing my having expatriated myself from the US in 1975. I filed away my CLN and forgot I had it, until I found it after searching for it upon learning of FATCA and OVDI in August 2011. Since then, I proudly keep a photocopy of it with my passport (which is Canadian; I have never had a US passport in my life, nor will I ever). As a Canadian who long since ceased being an American and who has a CLN, I am not directly affected by FATCA or other US taxation outrages. However, my wife and several of her friends are affected, until their relinquishment CLNs (dating from 30-40 years ago) are issued. Also I have several close friends who were born in Canada of US parents and are considered by the US to be US citizens, though they have never lived in the US, worked there, earned income there, held property there, held US passports, or in any other way excercised USC and are horrified they might be considered US. I am active on this website and in writing my elected Canadian politicians about these issues, on their behalf. I am a retired former employee of the Government of Canada who faithfully and proudly served his adopted and adoptive country for many years. Updated September 2, 2012: earlier this week, my wife finally received her relinquishment CLN, State Department formal recognition that (in their exact words on the CLN) she "ceased to be a US citizen on" the date she became a Canadian more than 35 years ago. Mission Accomplished, to borrow words from my least-favourite contemporary/contemptible American. I will continue to monitor this website from time to time to see if I contribute useful information or opinions, but my wife and I are determined to regain our lives after the past twelve months of angst. Best wishes to all of you on this website in your odyssey toward freedom from the US.

162 thoughts on “October 19 is Election Day in Canada”

  1. @Marie,
    I I certainly will be pushing ard on this and will post more here when I get answers or further info. You are right that I will have to look more into that Cdn investment that pays dividends in US$

  2. LM The information you want is all here.

    http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/nhncdrprtng/gdnc-eng.html

    Rather than copy it all I’ll refer you to 7.12 and 7.13 ‘Form of self certification’ and 8.63 and 8.64 -essentially a repeat.
    RBC is going overboard. There should be no need for a W8-ben if you have no US source income. My guy tried to get me to sign by saying that many mutual funds have US source income. You can sign the W8-ben, go to war with RBC or move your accounts. You should know that you are right but that it might not do you any good with RBC.

    Tricia Moon There is no legal way for this to happen IRS can and will be able to attach a levy on any bank account via a US branch. and no way for this either The IRS’ first attempt to collect would be via the QI agreement that all banks made with the IRS long before FATCA.
    P.S. Why is this on the election thread rather than the FATCA one?

  4. @Portlandplc

    I wrote it here because I am busy and this is when it occured to me. Particularly because W8BENs are related to the QI program and may be the underlying problem here rather than the IGA requirements. You are welcome to complain to the other moderators if this is such a huge problem for you. Will you also complain about this discussion of W8BENs being on the Election thread? Also, when you can produce something substantial other than your opinion that there is no legal way for this to happen I will be happy to hear it.

    @Duke

    I know Max and will talk with him about it. He may have “debunked it” but that is not the case with others. I am hearing this from people with experience in the area. There is more than one old case about this however, I am only bringing it up because in spite of the fact it should not be legal to do this, I am hearing it can and does happen. Again. I will be happy to be wrong.But it needs more investigation.

  8. I have some good news from my newly minted Liberal MP Pam Goldsmith-Jones this morning. I wrote to her yesterday:

    Dear Pam,

    I know your inbox is probably jammed-packed with email, but I just want to offer you my heartfelt congratulations and to tell you how proud I am to have helped as I did with my one vote to see you elected in our riding. What a difference a day can make in the psyche of a country! I feel like a dark cloud has been lifted as a result of Harper being sent packing.

    It’s my intention to continue working toward undoing much of what the Harper government’s done to render many Canadians second-class citizens, including the passage of the FATCA IGA. As you are aware, our legal efforts to place an emergency injunction against it’s implementation have failed, but we are looking forward to the next phase of our court battle where we challenge the federal government on a constitutional basis.

    If I may, I’d like at this point to remind you of the policy statement Pat, Mary and I collaborated on at your request,

    “With the FATCA/IGA, the Harper Conservatives instituted the supremacy of U.S. law over Canadian citizens in Canada. The Liberal Party needs to do the right thing for Canadians by restoring Canadian Sovereignty and restoring Charter Rights to all Canadian Citizens and permanent residents regardless of national origin, and by protecting them from the extraterritorial overreach of other nations.

    Although the Liberal Party hasn’t taken a formal position regarding the FATCA IGA, many Canadians took encouragement from a letter they recently received from Mr Trudeau:

    “Thank you for taking the time to write to me with your concerns regarding the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA).
    The safeguarding of personal privacy has become an increasingly important issue to all Canadians. The government’s move to ensure that information is reported to the U.S. through Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) and not directly from the banks was a positive step; however, the implications of having the CRA report to a foreign government about Canadian citizens are still troublesome. The Liberal Party of Canada believes that the Conservative government’s efforts to safeguard the personal privacy of Canadians have been inadequate.
    While the United States has the right to target tax evaders using offshore accounts, targeting hard working Canadians who pay taxes is unfair. The government of Canada has a responsibility to stand up for its citizens when foreign governments are encroaching on their rights. We believe that the deal reached between Canada and the U.S. is insufficient to protect affected Canadians.
    Thank you once again for writing to me; I always appreciate it when Canadians take the time to share their concerns with me. It is through such exchanges of ideas and opinions that I can best represent not only my constituents, but all Canadians.
    Sincerely
    Justin J.P. Trudeau”

    I’m very much looking forward to the next chapter where our new Prime Minister addresses this issue with decisive action, now that he’s in the position to do so. With so much facing him now that he’s the leader of our great nation, your effort to bring this to his attention would be greatly appreciated.

    Yours truly,
    [bubblebustin]

    Her brief response:

    “Thank you for your support. FATCA is important and we will follow up do not worry.”

    Yesterday I heard that Trudeau is expected to appoint a smaller cabinet with more women. There’s a good chance that Pam will be considered. This is getting interesting.

  9. Does anyone in London West want to go with me to meet with newly elected Kate Young? I worked with Kate when she was the anchor for CFPL and I freelanced doing commentaries for them.

    I met with Kate in the spring and she quickly grasped what FATCA meant for Canada and for Canadians. She worked hard to try to get a policy statement from the Liberal Party and seemed taken aback at the silent treatment. Then she became silent on the issue.

    London North Centre also has a new Liberal MP–who defeated Susan Truppe, the Con MP who sat in for one of the Finance Committee members and voted against the amendments put forward by NDP, Libs and Green.

    London Fanshawe reelected the NDP MP who has been supportive of our efforts on FATCA so a visit to her might be helpful.

    Middlesex-Elgin elected a Con (who was Assistant to the Con who retired). Native Canadian has done an outstanding job of letting her know what FATCA means to second class Canadian citizens but any extra voices would be welcome.

  12. @Calgary411 @Blaze

    We need to get in their faces like you’re working to do. There shouldn’t be an MP left in this country who doesn’t know about the FATCA IGA.

    The million-dollar question is how far the government will go in condemnation of the previous government’s actions, now that it’s thankfully before the courts.

  13. @Bubbles, @Blaze @Calgary……I am in awe at you guys. It is said that victory in battle comes from the actions of the unknown.

    Once the FATCA IGA falls in Canada and it shall fall, it will then fall elsewhere.

    There will be strangers in Belgium who do not know of the Belgium IGA and will only find out after it has fallen and will have no idea why it fell.

    One of the aspects of in person meetings is that you can plant verbal seeds that you would not otherwise put in writing.

    “Will the Liberal Party defend a law passed by harper that is indefensible? Do the Liberals want to be taininted and hung out to dry when the Supreme Court throws out the IGA?”

    I would be tempted to compare the FATCA IGA as a trap laid for the Liberals!!!!

  14. Do you know what did it for me, George? Not leaving it up to someone else to do. Besides that I have to channel my anger somewhere constructive. I have to admit it does feel good to be making some progress. Like a lot of us though, I would rather be doing things like gardening, mastering crochet patterns or working to make things better within our communities. Right now I can barely keep my house clean.

    Did you notice that I didn’t use the words “dual” or “American” once in my letter?

  15. @George

    Further to your suggestion that FATCA’s defeat would have a domino effect around the world – that would be great, but I’m totally preparing myself for the Liberals to screw us too. At least Trudeau won’t have broken a campaign promise if he does!

  16. Tricia moon. Thanks to Duke of Devon for the reference from Max Reed a lawyer with SKL Tax Max Reed explains it to you much more clearly than I could. It’s not just my opinion, it’s the (Canadian ) law.

  17. Tricia Moon

    Also, when you can produce something substantial other than your opinion that there is no legal way for this to happen I will be happy to hear it.

    Here’s another.
    Thorsteinssons may be the toughest tax lawyers in Canada.
    http://people.stu.ca/~hunt/ustaxinfo/ctf.pdf

    In summary, a Canadian citizen need have little concern about the collection of US tax, interest, and ancillary penalties.<blockquote

  18. @Portland, interesting and helpful info. But the potential harm is not limited to the collection of taxes and penalties. As someone who is retired and who lives off a lifetime’s savings and investments, if I am unable to invest in the country where I live due to being denied access to legitimate Canadian investment vehicles, then I am being harmed. Period. The fact that the US can’t come after me is good to know. But the prospect of being denied, by my FIs, the opportunity to pay my bills the only way open to me at my age, by investing and participating in a (hopefully) growing Canadian economy, is harm. If I am not allowed to grow my assets, they will run out, perhaps before I do!

  19. Noname. Agreed. We have had hours of discussion about how to avoid FATCA reporting when opening or maintaining an investment account.

  20. @Portland & Duke

    Thank you for the links. These address what would happen if the IRS tried to attach assets in Canada via a CDN court. They do not address the situation I was warned about; i.e., the IRS simply putting a levy on a US branch of a CDN bank. I am not trying to argue with you nor am I saying I know they can do this. But I am being told this by a number of different people and it is referenced a lot on various websites. I want to get to the bottom of it, once and for all. The Van der Mark v TD Bank 1989 case is closer.
    I remember everyone’s response when discussing FATCA, and how it was illegal for the banks to turn over the info due to PIPEDA. And what happened? Our govt simply changed the law. It does not make sense that the US would go to all this trouble with no plan to collect. What/who is going to stop them from simplying applying another obscene measure to make sure they get what they want?
    I have also again asked re QI agreements with ability to levy accounts and I will write Max. He is only quoting revenue rule and Harden. Don’t think this is enough.

  21. Tricia makes an excellent point. Laws change. What happens when the US introduces a collection component to FATCA? Why would the US go through all this trouble with no plan to collect??? That’s why our litigation is so important.

  22. They went through all this with their eyes closed and their minds in neutral. It was designed for Americans living in the US . They simply gave no thought whatsoever to Americans overseas, duals, accident als whatever. We are collateral damage. They had no plan to collect from those who aren’t in the system, or who aren’t wealthy enough to justify the effort.

  23. “They simply gave no thought whatsoever to Americans overseas”

    Yes they did. They know we’re all tax evading traitors. Sanders and the NY Post aren’t the only ones who know it, they all know it.

    Roger Conklin testified to Congress in 1978, right? For 37 years Congress has known what they’re doing. This is intentional.

  24. I presume they only intended it for Homelanders. But things have changed. And part of the problem here, is that some of us have been around for a long time (4 yrs). The first reporting happened less than a month ago. We are used to thinking we can predict what will happen. But we haven’t even seen the first response of the IRS yet. I don’t see how anyone thinks they know what is going to happen……….

  25. “I presume they only intended it for Homelanders.”

    No, they know what they’re doing. They know they won’t profit from $0.00 tax returns, but they profit from penalties.

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