Another good reason 4 #FATCA data collection. HMRC is considering selling its UK taxpayer info to interested parties http://t.co/rVxIRC340S
— Marvin Van Horn (@FATCA_Fallout) April 19, 2014
Just_Me tweeted this today and it brings to mind some of the concerns arising out of the beginning of the end of any kind of privacy as we know it whether it be financial, medical or just plain personal. This article also reminded me of some of Abby Deshman’s points at the Pathways2Privacy Symposium which some Brockers attended on March 20-21 in Toronto. I was shocked to find out that the police keep a file on each and every type of contact made with the public. Examples are making 911 calls, criminal convictions, acquittals, stay-of-proceedings, not-criminally responsible verdicts, suspects never charged and even casual police contact. I was even more shocked to hear that there is almost no privay protection for this information and that the police routinely release such information on demand for servicing or on demand by the community. (!) In addition, there is a growing industry in Canada and the US (and possibly now, the UK) of selling this information to 3rd party providers. This amounts to the police making a profit from releasing records that most of the public believes and expects to be private.
Consider these statements from the BBC article:
(my emphases)
“If given the go-ahead it would allow HMRC to release anonymous tax data to third parties including companies, researchers and public bodies.”
“But concern has been raised over the plans in the wake of the Care.data initiative – a proposed anonymous sharing of NHS medical records – which is currently suspended after fears were raised as to exactly what information would remain anonymous.”
“Mr Davis told the Guardian: “The officials who drew this up clearly have no idea of the risks to data in an electronic age.”
“Our forefathers put these checks and balances in place when the information was kept in cardboard files, and data was therefore difficult to appropriate and misuse.”
“It defies logic that we would remove those restraints at a time when data can be collected by the gigabyte, processed in milliseconds and transported around the world almost instantaneously.”
A HMRC spokesman said: “HMRC would only share data where this would generate clear public benefits, and where there are robust safeguards in place.”
As if there are not enough threats to our personal privacy already in place (local police, FATCA-IGA on the horizon and the NSA), should we expect to hear soon that THE CRA will be selling “anonymous” tax data to third parties?
At least we should get a royalty on any story they do on our miserable lives.
Why don’t we have a list of lawyers who will take individual cases in Canada, not so much a Charter issue as privacy issues and peripheral damages. Surely the detailed service agreements on the web sites of the banks would apply conversely to them? Many of us could tie up the banks legal teams by suing individual bankers in small claims court under 25,000.00 (the limit) with virtually no cost to ourselves. Imagine that even if we lost they still have to present their case and pay their lawyers and go through the motions. One doesn’t need a lawyer to do this. If hundreds of thousands of us opened at least one case on some aspect of what is in their terms of service that protects them and appealing to the court that they should apply to you as well and claim some financial and general damages the only thing the court can do is say no way and there is nothing the other side can do in small claims court.
Would the folks here that initiated the Charter Challenge be agreeable to finding dozens of other lawyers (like I said maybe not needed) for those of us who want them? This shouldn’t be difficult since the team we have here interviewed dozens of lawyers in their search. But I’d like to see any individuals here who have been wronged, or think they have, open small claims cases across the country.
@Triciia, thanks for this post It is apparent to me (so just my slant on things) that whenever personal data is shared with impersonal parties, bad things happen.
Why don’t more people appreciate the importance of their and others’ privacy?
Are most of us too trustworthy for our own good?
@ChearsBigEars, I think it’s too early even for small claims court. The people who have been hurt kind of did this to themselves by entering OVDI, forced into it by shark lawyers. In Canada, contrary to Switzerland, it’s not the banks who forced people into OVDI. We’ll have to wait and see how the IRS handle the flow of data they’re going to get and how they go after non compliant people. Like we have to wait until legislation is passed to implement the IGA to start the legal challenge, I don’t think there is a legal case until the action of sending the data to the US is causing harm, which will not happen until mid 2015 according to their timeline.
I disagree with this statement
“Like we have to wait until legislation is passed to implement the IGA to start the legal challenge,”
Who told you this nonsense? Anyone can sue in small claims court if they think they have a case. We are talking about creating a nuisance for those who create it for us. Like everyone here I can do whatever I want to do. For that matter if I want to take 20,000.00 out of my own pocket and spend it on a constitutional lawyer of my own no one stops me. Please stop posting silly rules that someone made up. If I feel damaged right now I’ll exercise my legal right to sue, say a bank manager. I don’t need permission from anyone.
“I don’t think there is a legal case ……”
What law firm are you with? No one needs a lawyer to go to small claims court. The banks will send their own lawyers and from time to time a judge, who despises banks, will rule against the banks respecting the David against Goliath tradition. All we need are a few precedents in lower courts to throw a spanner at their head
@WhiteKat
We all assume we have privacy.. but with the internet & databases… we no longer do… govts will get free access of info on us that they would never have been able to get without a court order… I think CRA is only allowed certain info & are required to follow procedure on a canadian taxpayer… now with Fatca… they will get unlimited access without any court order or restrictions… normally they would have no access to… CRA may even develop their own database and have a map of all 2nd class citizen.. who know who will see all this info… They may even get some real canadians info… how will the errors be fixed… What by accident… an amount says I got a million dollars instead of say 100,000… I will be hounded by both CRA & US cause I got that kind of money that was never reported… how do I get out of that problem caused by a bank? Sorry… kind of feeding my paranoid state… lol…
I have posted this before, but if you haven’t watched it, I recommend it…
Dragnet Nation…
http://youtu.be/WzXyo9bDWvA
Total Surveillance State.
Now, if you could just get the Left to understand that FATCA is just another aspect of Dragnet Nation.
@Just Me
“Now, if you could just get the Left to understand that FATCA is just another aspect of Dragnet Nation.”
Over on the NZ capitulation thread, Mark Hubbard has just posted the following link to a fascinating and timely article by Carrie Stoddart-Smith, “…a Left identifying person, noting that this is my personal opinion and not intended as a reflection of general left wing thought in NZ.”
http://ellipsister.wordpress.com/2014/04/20/fatca-nzs-insidious-future/
Hopefully her opinion will find growing support amongst her peers, and that all anti-FATCA voices in New Zealand will soon unite, political identities be damned. Time for Canada, and all nations, to do the same.
Privacy is dead.
Unless you can protect yourself in any way on a personal level- even minimally.
This is actually also one of the reasons I renounced. I am now a citizen of the country I live in and don’t have to send out my information anywhere else on the globe.
@Polly, it was a big reason for me to renounce too. We have always been fairly private people. These days so much of your information is shared for so many reasons you may as well stand in the street and yell out your SIN numbers and medical information. I have never liked the direction things are going with stored and shared information and FATCA was just another way in which we’d have zero privacy. Bank information is so sensitive. Both my spouse and I really objected strongly to the idea that a bank employee we do not know would be handing over our information and who knows where it will end up after that?
My spouse and I needed to know at the very least we are protected under the laws of the country we both live in. HE couldn’t even remotely enjoy such being married to me *an American* so I renounced. If anyone ought to have their banking information gone through with a fine tooth comb it’s congress people first and then bankers, not average citizens living in Canada, New Zealand and the U.K. Let them start with themselves if this is all such a great idea. Until then our house hold just said “No”
Perhaps in the UK someone should spend some money for a billboard along the M4 section before Chiswick with a picture of Boris Johnson with “Boris are you complying with FATCA?” and put http://www.isaacbrocksociety.ca on the bottom.
That would create instant attention to one find out what Boris is hiding and what is FATCA.
The same type of situation as Canada’s Elizabeth May, Diane Ablonczy, Myron Thompson — and how many others (not officially claimed their relinquishment by working for Canadian government), for which an official CLN will not apply?
@Atticus
Absolutely. I think all the hype about “tax evaders” is due to trying to find a scapegoat so the heat will be taken off the Wall Street crooks. Isn’t it obvious that the wealthy in America don’t want to be taxed and are trying to rake in funds elsewhere? It is all corrupt anyway. Breaks my heart and scares me too- because I am one of those who thinks there are bigger plans for FATCA due to CBT in the long run.
@Polly
Its all that free info/map of peoples’ funds who will have no legal rights or privacy. They will be able to get all this info without getting a court order… then slap fines that will & could wipe us out… its a win/win for them.
I also realize… once they have this info… crossing any customs will be hazardous… we break a law we know nothing about & is found in a database… we can be turned away, detained, or worse. Who knows who will get this info. Any country can… if u think about it… Fatca is the library… any country could have a library card…will get this info… no legal reason they can’t.. there is no privacy in it…
With regards to suing the banks in small claims court, have a look what happened in the UK over bank fees. Millions of people took the banks to small claims court as I did myself winning over £3000 back in fees.
However banks tend to regard these exercises as a cost of doing business and allocate teams from any things from just cutting the check as filing with the small claims court to making you show up in court on the day only to offer you money and telling the judge we’ve come to our own arrangements.
But what it does do is provide publicity. If you do this make certain you post a DIY kit so people can just turn it into a form filling exercise and quickly see the cases mount up against the banks.
Earlier this year, the U.K. government was trying to flog the healthcare data, but that was stopped because of the public outcry. One of the leading writers on the healthcare industry noted that it would be possible to de-anonymise people with unique enough circumstances. In essence, the U.K. government is desperate for cash, but all the gold was sold of in the late 1990s, the national family silver is long gone, and it sold the post office a few months ago for far too little money.
One good thing is that national tax authorities are starting to overreach so much that people on the left are beginning to notice it. The HMRC selling data story made the front page of the Guardian, while it and the Huffington Post reported on an even more incredible plan: the HMRC had planned to raid the bank accounts of anyone it thought owed them more than £1,000 without any due process:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/04/14/george-osborne-hmrc-bank-accounts-mps_n_5145194.html
It seems the only way to stop the sales of our data and get protection from the IRS/CRA is to not file with them. Oh, but that is illegal and they would arrest us….. 2 million of us? If we stay being good legal citizens we’re screwed??? Terrible questions to ask……
The CRA has the ability to take funds from personal bank accounts after letters of intent to do so. I personally know a retired senior woman whose bank account was frozen and funds removed for
non payment of taxes. This happened about 6 years ago. She was left with zero funds. She learned
a lesson from that experience. It doesn’t pay to ignore the CRA.
It doesn’t pay to file with the CRA/IRS if they are going to give your data to a foreign country without protection of that data now does it? Who’s responsibility is it if hackers get your information from the IRS files? You need to understand, what the CRA/IRS is doing is illegal. They just ditched the law to screw certain citizens. The people should havethe choice to screw certain IRS/CRA files too right? Are we asleep here on what they are doing??
@Ann, Most Canadians with clinging US citizenship already pay their Canadian taxes. The situation you are referring to is where a Canadian taxpayer is not up to date with her/his Canadian tax debts. It is not an apple to apple comparison that you are making. At this point in history, there is no authority for CRA to just take money out of a Canadian citizen’s account to pay the IRS for a debt that IRS thinks this person incurred while she/he was simultaneously a Canadian living in Canada earning no US source income. Your comment could scare people unnecessarily, especially those who are new to this site, and we have enough to be worried about already.
“However banks tend to regard these exercises as a cost of doing business and allocate teams from any things from just cutting the check as filing with the small claims court to making you show up in court on the day only to offer you money and telling the judge we’ve come to our own arrangements.”
We won’t settle. We want the precedents in order to migrate to higher courts and favorable judgements which will help the Charter Challenge
Look……everyone here who is clear, should launch a small claims suit and furthermore ask for injunctions while the suit is in the works. Out of hundreds of suits we will get the legal rulings we need in order to really cause them headaches. Why isn’t this being done? I can’t just yet but if just one bankster causes me any trouble I will sue immediately. Really, we don’t need negativity here as we get from numerous posters here who are only pretending to be with our cause but offer nothing positive in the place of what they dismiss.
I for one and getting REALLY tired of do gooders here knocking every good idea and strategy others come up with with some flimsy excuse they can think of. Man what a war we are waging, capitulators everywhere, white flag wavers to the right and cowards to the left. When are people here going to get serious here? When are the naysayers going to stop slamming every idea that comes across? I wish they would leave instead of arguing and discouraging people here when they should be actively engaged in some form of civil disobedience or general shit disturbing. What a nation of yellow belly cowards we live in. Its almost an institution for Canadians to wimp out and bury their heads.
“She was left with zero funds. ”
BECAUSE SHE WAS STUPID ENOUGH TO LEAVE ALL HER MONEY IN A BANK? The system wants people to put all their eggs in one basket that they can reach. Oh GAWD! LOL there was even one fool on posting on this site who suggested people ignore holding physical precious metals. That person should have been immediately banned from here and those comments removed because he was obviously a plant trying to discourage people from engaging in proper financial planning. ANY financial planner worth their salt recommends 10-25% of a persons liquid assets be in PHYSICAL precious metals (gold, silver and platinum) and if anyone here has such advise to the contrary from a “financial planner” and are taking that advise then they deserve to be broke. That goes for anybody, not just those affected by our own problems.
There is absolutely no law against owning PMs as long as if you sell them (who would do this unless there was a disaster and then wouldn’t care about taxes as they would not have any) you declare any capital gains. Furthermore no one should be afraid to list them as assets, if they choose, to on their fascist disclosure forms because there is no way in hell that anyone is going to confiscate them especially if they are hidden somewhere safe..THIS IS NOT TAX EVASION OR AVOIDANCE. So, who cares who knows? People, in my opinion, get out of the game. The financial system is collapsing and it has nothing to do with FATCA as that is just a symptom. If you have a headache take a Tylenol, don’t just sit and suffer because someone told you that its not wise for health planning reasons.
I’m so tired of telling people this…REALLY TIRED.
“The Next Shoe Just Dropped: Court Denies Attorney-Client Privilege”
– http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-19/next-shoe-just-dropped-court-denies-attorney-client-privelege
@US_person_foreigner
They are detaining people already and don’t need to give a reason for doing so.
Interestingly, the man behind this is UK Treasury minister David Gauke. The very same who led the UK IGA negotiations. The man is a serial abuser of human rights. There are at least 100,000 UK citizens with USP status living in the UK. With a close election coming up next year, that number of voters choosing anyone but Conservative could easily tip the balance.