I was very happy to report on a born-dual friend’s successful consulate meeting this week, in which he applied for a CLN based on his relinquishment at the time of taking government employment.
However, Brockers have reported some consulate personnel erroneously telling them that a person born dual or who acquired their non-US citizenship as a minor is unable to expatriate except by renouncing. In fact, there is no automatic disqualification of such persons from having the capacity to perform certain other relinquishing acts.
Such consulate personnel are probably conflating s. 349(a)(1) of the Immigration and Nationality Act with all other non-renunciation methods of relinquishing one’s citizenship. Section 349(a) (1) is naturalising in a foreign country after having obtained the age of 18 with the intent to relinquish. Obviously a person cannot naturalise in a country they’re already a citizen of.
It appears that s. 349(a) (2), taking an oath, may also not apply to persons who already possess citizenship in the country they’re taking the oath to, as DoS has a 4-prong test for determining if an oath of allegiance is “meaningful” for this purpose. Prong 4 is “the making and receipt of the oath or affirmation alters the affiant’s legal status with respect to the foreign state” (7 FAM 1252(h))”.
But that still leaves not one, but three, possible ways for a person who acquired non-US citizenship at birth or as a minor can terminate their US citizenship:
— Commissioned or non-commissioned military officer in the armed forces of a foreign state, s.349(a)(3);
— Government employment in a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, 349(a)(4) [eg. federal, provincial, municipal];
— Renunciation, s. 349(a)(5).
Subs (6) and (7) deal with war and treason, so presumably not relevant to this particular discussion.
CLNs based on government employment have been issued to persons who acquired their foreign citizenship at birth or as a minor. I’m aware of several of these and I know of none that have been rejected because the person was born dual or acquired their foreign citizenship as a minor — nor can I find anything in the law or DoS procedure manuals to indicate that this could be a ground for rejection. I was also in contact with a citizenship specialist at DoS/Consular Affairs/Legal Affairs in Washington regarding persons-born-dual, who told me that it was her understanding that this was not a bar to relinquishing under subs (3) and (4).
Reports on the consulates are mixed, though. At Calgary in 2012, Prairie Girl had to insist that her s. 4 based application be sent to Washington, where it was approved over a Calgary consul’s negative recommendation in her CLN file. Authentic had no problem at Halifax in 2013. In recent months, people have run into problems with this misconception at Toronto, though another person had a smooth meeting at Ottawa, where the personnel were both aware of s. 4 and that it can apply to a person born dual.
It starts to feel like luck of the draw, so bone up on it before you go. Bring 349(a) and the relevant sections of the DoS manual/s with you. They have this information, of course, but you can have relevant passages pre-marked for convenience, if needed. Educating oneself is always important for any type of expatriation, and knowledge of the specifics of the law and procedure can be critical in any case where the consulate official handling your case is not familiar with CLN applications based on the sub-section you relinquished under.
Basically, be prepared, and politely but firmly stand your ground if a consulate official tells you that you are precluded from having relinquished under s. 3 or 4 because you were born dual or acquired your second citizenship as a minor.
Useful Links:
8 USC 1481, Text of Immigration and Nationality Act, s. 349(a)
USCIS charts: if born to US parent/s outside the US, ascertain if you are or are not a US citizen.
Chart 1: Children born outside US in wedlock
Chart 2: Children born outside US outside of wedlock
Department of State Manuals:
7 FAM 1210 Introduction
7 FAM 1220 Developing a Loss of Nationality Case
7 FAM 1270 Military Service and Loss of Nationality
7 FAM 1280 Loss of Nationality and Taking Up a Position in a Foreign Government
Experiences of Brockers:
Reports by persons who relinquished upon taking government employment. The reports are in reverse chronological order based on date of consulate meeting.
You can also access these reports, along with all other relinquishment/renunciation reports reported to Brock, throughout the Consulate Report Directory. The Directory is arranged in chapters by consulate, and reports appear chronologically within each chapter.
Related Brock page: Born Outside the US and/or Born Dual.
Cross-posted at Maple Sandbox.
I had my second interview in Vancouver last September. On form 4079 yes I did say in response to question 18b, that I wanted to renounce, not relinquish (the $450 USD question). I agree the form is sloppy but it is just a bureaucratic low jump. It probably does not matter what you write as long as you fill out enough fields. On question 17, my answer was “I have lived in Canada for over half of my life, including continueous since 1985. I feel it is natural or proper to be a citizen in the country that one lives in.” Whatever. At your expatriation interview you just need to establish that you will not become stateless. To me, form 8854 is the scary one (filed with your final IRS taxes after you renounce). An error there might make you “covered” and liable for tens of thousands of dollars.
Can anyone confirm that municipal government employment would fall under the “political subdivision” category?
@Kathy –
You could make the argument, yes. Municipalities are the ‘creatures’ of the provinces, a subordinate level of government in relation to the provinces, as many Ontario communities found to their sorrow under Mike Harris. OTOH “foreign state” in the INA clearly means a nation-state, and municipal governments aren’t subdivisions of the *federal* government.
OTOOH the State Department is very unlikely to want to get into questions of Canadian municipal law.
@a broken man…
I may just have answered my own question. http://www.parl.gc.ca/About/Parliament/Education/OurCountryOurParliament/html_booklet/three-levels-government-e.html
This states the Canada has 3 levels of government with the third being municipal.
As well, I emailed the US consulate in Toronto and asked:
“On the form when it asks about working for the government of a foreign country, would that include working for a municipal government of a foreign country?”
The reply was:
“It usually means working for either municipal or federal government.”
Except for the word “usually”, I think it’s clear that municipal government should be included. Mind you, I’m not sure I want to be the first to test this. Does anybody know if anyone had relinquished successfully based on employment at the municipal level?
@Kathy –
There’s no down side to being the first to test it.
Thanks @WhatAmI. I understand the not being ready part. It’s a tremendous amount of time, research and running around gathering documentation and arming yourself with as much knowledge as possible. I don’t want to book until I have all my documents in hand and feel completely confident (or as confident as I can be) about my argument. Honestly, getting a record of employment from CBC is almost as complicated as dealing with the IRS!
@broken man
I agree that in Canada, since military personnel swear (I think) the same oath of allegiance as do federal public servants, and since there is a separate line in the US Act for swearing any oath of allegiance, that even the lowest-ranked military personnel in Canada should qualify (section 2).
I certainly should hope so; it would be absurd for a janitor at a public elementary school to qualify for relinquishment but not someone who was in a combat role in Kabul or Khandahar for Canadian Forces. IMO anyway.
My real point is the irony, not to mention outrageousness, of the US lawmakers trying to make a distinction between private soldiers (who generally are the most “at risk” in combat, certainly no less at risk than non-coms or combat officers up to Captain) and higher ranks, when no distinctions of rank or responsibility are mentioned at all in the sections pertaining to employment by a government or government subdivision. This is a bit rich, coming from a country that has often proclaimed itself to be a class-less society. Or maybe it’s another example of US “exceptionalism” in assuming that maybe US private soliders are “real” soldiers but private soldiers in other nations’ armies aren’t. I have great trouble understanding why that discrimination exists in this particular US law, but then there are so many other things about US law in this whole area that are baffling or infuriating …
@ a broken man…
Down side is finding out they don’t agree and leave me with no alternative but to renounce. Could just lay low instead. Wish this whole process was much clearer.
I don’t understand how in 1984 I lost my US citizenship, but because they change their laws I got it back magically. I wonder if I had known about CLNs back in ’84 and got one, would I have ended up with US citizenship anyway. And if so, even if I get a CLN now, what guarantee do I have that they won’t change their laws again and that CLN will be void and useless?
@Kathy,
I haven’t seen any reports here at IBS about municipal government employment claim attempts. I plan to do it. My appointment is in mid-April, but I don’t yet have a confirmation letter from The City of Calgary. Their records don’t go back to the 70’s, and they are reluctant to write a letter not based on their own records. So, my plan is totally up in the air.
I don’t see your history here. “Laying low” is a reasonable option for Canadians born in Canada to US parents. Canadians born to Canadian parents in the US is a different matter due to FATCA and border-crossing issues. Since you mention renouncing, I assume you were born in the US. What did you do to lose your USC in 1984? I have never heard of a CLN being voided. I think retro-active reinstatement of USC only applies to people who don’t have a CLN.
For example, prior to 1986, if a US person naturalized in Canada, the DoS assumed they intended to relinquish their USC. In 1986, the law was deemed unconstitutional and changed to make the assumption that such a person intended to _keep_ their USC, and this change was made retrospectively. Surely, the change of assumption can’t apply to those who registered their intention with the DoS and obtained a CLN.
@schubert1975 –
Remembering that the rules were originally designed to strip people of their citizenship for ‘going native’ in a foreign country, I think the line they were trying to draw was based on recognizing that a USC in a foreign country might be swept up into a foreign army through circumstances beyond their control, but they weren’t supposed to show enough enthusiasm to attract actual promotion. Or something.
For those of you Canadians born in the US who are worried about crossing the border, have you considered getting a Nexus pass to avoid dealing with humans and the anxiety that produces when crossing the border?
My husband was born in the US and has a Nexus card. He goes to the US pretty regularly either by car or plane. He never gets harrassed since they have expedited border clearance for Nexus card holders. He says he never has to deal with a human when he’s flying to the US and has never in all his life been questioned about his US birthplace or the fact that he ALWAYS flies on a Canadian passport. He just renewed his Nexus card and it’s good for 5 years.
They allow expedited clearance for Nexus card holders so they can have more time to harrass other passengers.
@OMG
I think most of the hassles reported here have to do with not having a US passport, which is required when you apply for Nexus…
@bubblebustin, a US passport is NOT required when you apply for Nexus. My husband is proof of that. He renews his Canadian passport and keeps it with him when he travels to the US but having the Nexus card means he can avoid dealing with a human at the border. He just got his Nexus card renewed about a week ago and they still had no problem with the fact that he only flies on a Canadian passport.
@ OMG
I showed my husband the procedure (including biometrics) for getting a NEXUS card and he said, “(Bad Word) if I have to go through all that to cross the border I’ll never go there.” He’ll be getting a Canadian passport soon and then hopefully someday his CLN will arrive. IF he ever travels to the USA, those will be all the “Papiere, Bitte!” he will arm himself with for the border crossing. If they refuse him entry to the USA, he will just shrug and drive back home. I simply will never go there. It hasn’t been my desire to go there for 20 years so I don’t expect to ever have the desire or the need to go there in the future. Everyone has to solve their USA problem according to their own particular situations. Sounds like HE’s STILL an AMERICAN has a good workable solution for himself.
@ WhatAmI
I met the requirement of reaching my 25th birthday without living in US in ’84. Was born in US to Canadian parents, was registered as Canadian birth abroad in ’61 and moved permanently to Canada in ’62. Never acted as a US citizen in any way since, just Canadian.
Why would a relinquishment based on meeting the exact same requirement be void if you didn’t get a CLN at the time (honestly, who even had heard of them back then!) and not void if you did?
Looking to use my municipal employment as my last shot at relinquishment. Still there at the City, so I don’t have your issue of proving employment. Do you know what the consulate will accept as proof of employment? My HR department are very helpful and I will even try to get a signed statement from the mayor if I can (good thing I don’t work for Toronto!).
I’ll keep tabs at IBS to hear how your situation unfolds. If it’s received positively at your appointment, I’ll likely follow suit.
Remember that song “There Must Be 50 Ways to Lose Your Lover”?
There used to be “50 Ways to Lose Your US Citizenship” but they’ve all been voided!
@Kathy,
Our histories are identical except I’m 5 years older than you.
The 25th birthday scenario you referred to _was_ INA 350. It was repealed on Oct 10, 1978; 3 months before I turned 25. It was repealed prospectively only, not retroactively, but still the DoS does not accept it as a relinquishing act now. No matter, you’re too young. I was as well, but I’m listing it in my accompanying letter regardless.
The employment letter needs to certify that you indeed do or did work for the city, and have your exact employment start date. Beyond that, it’s hard to say and I’m guessing/wondering: if it needs to specify your department or duties? If you signed any sort of an oath when you started, it wouldn’t hurt to have a copy of that (even if it’s a blank sample and not a copy of the one with your signature). An oath is not necessary, but some consuls mistakenly think it is.
What city do you work for? If it’s Calgary, I would desperately like to exchange private email with you. Just ask pacifica777 or calgary411 in this thread to give you my email address.
@Kathy…..I’m also pursuing a relinquishment based on government employment (Crown corporation). I am also wondering what sort of proof is required of employment. Does anyone know if a simple “Record of Employment” (similar to what one would receive if applying for EI) from one’s previous employer is all we need?
@OMG
I might have misunderstood. Nexus applicants are required to divulge current standing citizenships. Interestingly, the application asks for “primary” and “secondary” citizenships.
@bubblebustin, my husband got his Nexus card over 10 years ago. If they did ask about citizenship(s), he would have stated that he was a Canadian citizen only since that was and still is his belief. His passport lists his nationality as Canadian, although it does show a US birthplace. I suppose if he were filling out the application today he would state the same thing no matter what the US government might choose to believe.
If they do run his name through some US government database to see if he’s still a US citizen they would have a hard time proving it since he legally changed his last name after he became a Canadian citizen in 1980. His mother was so paranoid, she wanted to make sure the US government couldn’t get their hands on her sons and draft them into the US military. She couldn’t have predicted how helpful a name change would be now. This may be the reason he seems to fly under the radar where other people become trapped. The name change throws the US off since it was done in Canada after they became Canadian citizens.
@Mollly and @Kathy
I visited the Toronto consulate to advise them of my relinquishment when I worked for the Canadian government. I had copies of my letter of offer, my letter of resignation, a stamped and dated letter from human resources accepting my resignation, my signed and dated oath to the Queen, and my official government employee record (which included dates of employment).
Unfortunately the agent I dealt with didn’t actually look at any of my documentation. She insisted that because I was born dual, that I had to renounce (which is wrong – but I was intimidated). She recommended that my relinquishment case be denied.
I asked that she send my case to Washington anyway, as others on Brock have done. I hope to hear back by the end of this year.
I am so thankful to have found this website – I wouldn’t have had the courage to insist my file be sent to Washington without it.
@bubblebustin, Jeepers creepers! I just looked at his new Nexus card and under Citizen it says USA!
When he renewed his card a week ago, he says they asked to see his citizenship info and he showed them his Canadian citizenship card. When he looks at his online Nexus profile it says his citizenship is Canadian. I told him he needs to call them and get his Nexus card changed to show that he’s a Canadian citizen not a US citizen. He’s sure that his previous Nexus card listed his citizenship as Canadian. I think they must have just made a typo since they have no proof of his US citizenship because they’ve never asked for that.
Thank you so much @mykitty. I will keep my fingers crossed for your CLN! I feel the same way you do…..so grateful for this website and all the people on it. I was so intimidated by this whole process when I started, but the more I learn, the more empowered I feel. I am so proud of all of us who are refusing to take this lying down.
I wish you all the best with your relinquishment. Keep us posted.
@bubblebustin, Correction he said he misspoke and he can’t actually access his online Nexus profile and he doesn’t remember if his previous Nexus card listed him as a Canadian citizen.
He said when you go to get your Nexus card renewed first you see the Canadian guy who asks to see your Canadian citizenship info and then you see the USA guy who looks at all your info including your birth certificate etc and says “Oh you must be a dual citizen” to which my husband replied “I don’t think so”.
The USA guy seems to ignore the part about him saying he doesn’t think he’s a US citizen and enters him as a citizen of the USA on the Nexus card. Doesn’t show him as a dual but as US as if that is the preferred citizenship to have. The USA guy seems to have no problem whatsoever with the fact that this so called US citizen ALWAYS travels on a Canadian passport.
I was thinking my husband should call them and ask them to change the citizenship info on his Nexus card to Canadian but then I thought that will just attract more attention to himself since it’s the US side that appears to issue the card. Better to just leave it alone.
Nervous breakdown alert! I can’t breathe!!!
OMG,
Perhaps an over-zealous US border official who saw that your husband was born in the US, knows that the law is that a US citizen must enter the US with a US passport. What if there is a CLN????