This document — US Citizens Living in Canada — Income Tax Considerations dated February 2013 — just floated up out of the surf. This may be old hat. It may be new hat for a newbie. In any case, FWIW. Here’s a link to the 6-page fancy pdf:
http://www.bmo.com/pdf/nesbitt/USCitizensLivingInCanada_Eng%20-%20BMO%20NB.pdf
Thank you. I think things like this are really helpful for new people just learning of FATCA. I talk to them all the time. It’s surprising despite all the news that the majority out there still don’t really know what this means for them.
Seems to be fairly comprehensive and accurate. It’s also a point by point description of the full horror of being a US citizen in Canada. The USG won’t even grant their slaves the unfettered ability to properly plan for their own retirement or ultimate demise if they live in a “foreign” country. Well, screw the US government!
BMO must have realized that upon reading this synopsis, any rational US person would look into renouncing their US citizenship. They conveniently included a rundown on the “exit” tax regime as well. The only thing they forgot was a “how to” on US expatriation law.
Of course I know about the reach of US extra-territorial tax law and the self-centeredness of USians, but for a Canadian citizen living in Canada and having all of their financial holdings in Canada, how can any of their accounts be deemed to be “foreign” — as in “Foreign Bank Account Report (FBAR)” and “Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA)”?? For such a person, the US, not Canada is the “foreign” country!
I’m looking forward to being asked by my bank this year if I am a “US Person”, so I can follow the advice of Skeptical (on another thread at IBS) to “ask them if they are inquiring about your national origin for the purpose of unlawful discrimination.”
I wonder what the media would say if a bank accused someone of being a “US person” and dumped their mortgage and left the Bailiff to try to take their home because nobody in Canada will give them a mortgage…. so many problems for our government. The front page would say ” Canadian family loses house due to American law in Canada”
From another thread, the Department of State concedes that under international law, a so called dual citizen owes “paramount allegience” to the nation that they reside in where they have citizenship.
If a US citizen resident in Canada has banking problems in Canada they are screwed because they owe “paramount allegience” to the US and are clearly subject to the jurisdiction of.
But a Canadian Citizen whose sole transgression is losing the birth lottery and unfortunately being born in the US, they are Canadian in Canada owing “paramount allegience” to Canada and he Queen. When they open a bank account, they can only give one answer to citizenship and that is Canadian.
I pray the politicians in Canada get this right, the world is watching and praying.
Although they mention the tax treaty, they don’t mention the treaty provision that states that the Canadian government won’t collect taxes and penalties from a Canadian for the US. Pity.
I have been a customer of the same Canadian bank for 45 years. Fortuitously, this year I have just over $50,000 in my accounts with them. I can’t wait to see if and how they will approach a loyal customer like me about my status as a “U.S. person”. So far I haven’t found anything on their web site that indicates how they are planning to proceed in complying with FATCA. I have my CLN, but they are going to have to test my loyalty very hard to get me to show it to them.
One question I would have for Harper and his silence. If Canada brought Fatca in and the banks paid over 100 million each to implement, then raised fees to everyone for doing this. What if Fatca was recalled and quashed by the Republicans. Would the USA pay for all costs? Is Canada really stupid enough to implement a US law that is currently being voted on in US elections to be cancelled???
@Native Canadian
The US pay the costs? I seriously doubt it, but Canadian banks can deduct it as a business expense in Canada.
This business systems analyst from Britain was instrumental in “Implementing FATCA Compliance initiative at Scotia Bank’s Canadian Retail banking system” and subsequently went to TD Bank Group as a “Sr. Business System Analyst working with the conversion team to understand new business requirements, conduct business analysis, review, analyze and evaluate detailed business and functional requirements,documentation,process flows and data models to contribute to the development of the project plans including project charter, project deliverables, cost/benefit analysis and time line estimates.”
She appears to have made a “comfortable” sum of money in her one year stint in Canada. Pity it wasn’t a Canadian.
http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/neha-mahajan/33/927/137
I equate being part of the FATCA compliance complex to working in a munitions factory. While you don’t actually kill anyone, the victims wind up dead anyway!
@NativeCanadian
“Is Canada really stupid enough to implement a US law that is currently being voted on in US elections to be cancelled???”
According to this article, the RNC will be calling upon every government with embassies in Washington DC in attempt to dissuade each country from signing IGA’s!!!
As stated by Solomon Yue, the chief sponsor of the RNC resolution to repeal FATCA, “The third step is to send this resolution to all the foreign embassies in Washington DC, so their governments see there is no need to sign intergovernmental agreements with the US. Without such agreement[s], it would be difficult to enforce FATCA globally.”
http://international-adviser.com/news/tax—regulation/republican-party-committee-votes-for-repeal
@bubblebustin – I got a 404 on the link
@AnonAnon – why not show them the CLN? On principle?
@shunrata
Thanks, this one seems to work. Site admin, would you please replace the above with
http://international-adviser.com/news/tax—regulation/republican-party-committee-votes-for-repeal
@shunrata, even though I am no longer a US citizen and have a CLN attesting to that, I object to Canadian banks going along with FATCA and thus discriminating against Canadians who remain dual citizens. I also object to our banks spending huge amounts of money to comply with FATCA and, of course, passing those expenses along to us. So I want to register my objections with my bank by resisting cooperation with their enforcement of FATCA.
I can’t but someone needs to start a FATCA version of “Bank Transfer Day” (started 2011 in the US) and actively encourage all Canadians to do something proactive immediately and switch from the transnational banks into small local credit unions that have it in their mandate that they cannot invest outside Canada. BC Credit Unions cannot invest outside of BC for example. Is everyone aware of this? Is everyone also aware that there is an extra level of protection with regards to the requirement to report US citizens if the credit union has a smaller capitalisation?
In any case the only reason a person should have accounts in a “bank” in Canada is if they have a trading account because credit unions are not allowed to offer this service because they cannot invest outside of their Province.
Yes still file your disclosures but rest assured that the hostile foreign thieves have almost no chance of ever getting these small institutions to comply with their evil programs.
SO……….FATCA BANK TRANSFER DAY STARTS MONDAY JAN.27
Someone spread the word to the media and put up a web site like this:
https://www.facebook.com/Nov.Fifth
I wonder if the banks in this country want to lose about 20 million accounts as that is about what 4 million US persons have. If these US persons can convince a few of their friends to do the same and spread the word we can destroy the Canadian banks before they destroy us
@ChearsBigEars, I like your idea. I am torn between your suggestion, vs. leaving only some token assets in the only account I have remaining in a CBA member bank (the rest is mainly in local Credit Unions now) in order to employ/enjoy AnonAnon’s strategy. I do not want to be forced by any Canadian financial or non-financial institution to show the CLN that I should eventually receive – just on principle, and in solidarity with others who can’t extricate themselves with one. I am no longer a dual, but I resent having to demonstrate my US status OR LACK thereof. Especially as the assets in question belong to me. I am angry at the prospect of proving to a Canadian bank’s (and IRS) satisfaction) that MY legal, local Canadian-made, owned and sited assets should be ‘allowed’ to remain in their custody.
On the other hand, boycotting CBA members and banking only at a credit union (currently; “…In Ontario, approximately 11 per cent of the population banks at a credit union,..” http://www.central1.com/news/credit-unions-ontario-encourage-residents-join-cooperative-banking-movement ) aligns nicely with this new credit union initiative: ‘Newly formed group launches creative campaign to promote co-operative banking movement’
TORONTO, Jan. 20, 2014 /CNW/ – Want to achieve financial freedom and help your community while banking? That’s the idea behind the co-operative banking movement the Credit Unions of Ontario would like Ontarians to join. Their creative campaign encourages Ontarians to think about how they bank and consider credit unions as an economically viable and socially meaningful alternative to traditional banking options.
Credit unions from across Ontario have come together as the Credit Unions of Ontario to encourage Ontarians to join the co-operative banking movement, introduced through an inaugural creative campaign. The campaign, which includes ads on television and the web, as well as a refreshed social media presence, is designed to change the perceptions and attitudes Ontarians have towards credit unions, while educating them about the many benefits of this alternative form of banking….” http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/1291553/credit-unions-of-ontario-encourage-ontarians-to-bank-with-a-higher-purpose
If my Canadian credit union (who knew of my US citizenship, but not of my subsequent renunciation/relinquishment) should make the mistake of asking me of my current status, that could be an issue raised at their AGM in the company other fellow members and attendees. That is an option that as far as I know isn’t an option for bank accountholders.
@ AnonAnon. I agree. There’s no way I’m about to make it easy or pleasant for a bank to violate my rights. They need to know that what they are attempting to do is going to result in a huge backlash of anti-bank sentiment, not to mention possible legal consequences.
They need to contemplate the effect of headlines like “Bank XYZ closes Canadian citizen’s account for refusing to answer birthplace question”. “Bank ABC violates privacy law and hands over account holder info to IRS”.
If asked, I will answer Canadian-that’s all you need to know. If they insist, I will ask them to put it in writing so I can pass it on to the media, contact my MP, and get a legal opinion. If they want to see a piece of paper I’ll show ’em my Canadian citizenship certificate (no birthplace).
@ ChearsBigEars
It’s a good idea. I’m already at a credit union so I can’t transfer. I’d just warn anyone who is currently under the 8938 filing limit that a transfer would end up being double recorded and that might put you over the limit. That means another form to file which might expose you to the risk of reporting error penalties. You have to watch those numbers carefully.
@em Already solved that issue by a side note saying acct# 0000 is closed and moved to new acct #0001 I figure they love it if you explain things so their head doesn’t explode.
Except for a trading acct I’m almost completely out of Canadian transnational banks and suggest someone who believes in this idea start a similar facebook page maybe called Bank Transfer Day – FATCA Version or something like that. My plate is full so I can’t.
@badger, thanks for those links re credit unions. I have used them to locate a couple in my area and, independent of FATCA, I will investigate moving some of my savings to one of them — more so if my current bank inquires about my “US personhood”.
@maz57
“If asked, I will answer Canadian-that’s all you need to know. If they insist, I will ask them to put it in writing so I can pass it on to the media, contact my MP, and get a legal opinion. If they want to see a piece of paper I’ll show ‘em my Canadian citizenship certificate (no birthplace).”
your comment above is exactly what i was planning (my canadian citizen certificat) on doing except you even took it one step further with putting it writing and so forth…..brilliant…..thank you for putting one more tool in my tool box for if or when the day comes.
Em @ ChearsBigEars
Did you actually mean tomorrow for FATCA BANK TRANSFER DAY or was that just an example? We really don’t know how many USPs are aware of the FATCA monster. We do know that since the CBC media blitz the number of new arrivals at Brock has surged but there are unknown numbers lurking or just starting to get the message or oblivious to their USPness. BTW, I hadn’t looked at 8938 so that’s good to know you can do closed and opened on it. Not so with the new e(for evil)-filed FuBAR or FinCEN114.
@ All
Does anyone know what happens when a married filing separately USP does not provide an SS number for a spouse who is no longer a USP and does not feel obligated to provide it? Both on the 1040 and the new FBAR (e.g. joint accounts). Also, how does a USP in a business partnership with a non-USP get that partner to fork over a foreign SS equivalent number (e.g. SIN in Canada) for the new FBAR when both have signing authority on their business accounts. You can’t leave blanks on an FBAR and it specifically says you can’t use N/A (should be NOYDM — None Of Your Damn Business). These will only get you red flags and demand letters. Got one of those one year when my husband forgot to fill in l his Date Of Birth which strangely enough was exactly the same as on all his other previously filed FBARs.
@Em, this may not help you, but you said; “You can’t leave blanks on an FBAR…” . For my joint accts – co-owned with NON-US person (always Canadian-only) the (very expensive) US tax professionals consistently left the tax ID #. spot blank next to the Canadian-only co-owner’s name. They did not ask me for spouse’s SIN. But my US returns were filed ‘married filing separately’ because there was no way we were going to choose to elect to have the Canadian-only spouse and their Canadian-only earnings and assets transmogrified into a ‘US taxable person’. Thus they did not need to provide their Canadian SIN or any other ID number. I haven’t looked at the new online FBAR to see the instructions and if they differ.