It’s been months since I’ve seen any availability for Vancouver appointments. Thanks to Cyal8rUS, who posted the following comment on the “About the Isaac Brock Society” page.
“If someone with authorship privileges would be able to blog this: The Vancouver US Consulate FINALLY has new appointments available for “other” ACS services. If you have been trying to book a renunciation appointment, get there quickly. …”
The Vancouver website says; “If you would like to make an appointment to renounce or relinquish your U.S. citizenship, please email VancouverCLN@state.gov ” So, I e-mailed that address a few minutes ago and got an immediate automated reply (very comprehensive with detailed instructions). Of particular interest is this paragraph [emphasis added]:
“IMPORTANT NOTE REGARDING APPOINTMENTS
If you arrive fully prepared for your appointment, we will likely
process your loss of nationality in one interview. If you do not have
the forms filled out or if you do not have all required original
evidence, you will need to return for a second appointment.”
So: (1) only one visit is required, (2) you must book through Vancouver.CLN@state.gov (not through the online calendar).
Full text of the e-mail after the arrow.
“Thank you for contacting us regarding renouncing U.S. citizenship.
Please do not reply to this email. This inbox is not monitored.
Renunciation of U.S. citizenship must 1) be taken in the presence of a
diplomatic or consular officer; 2) be taken outside the United States;
and 3) be in the precise form prescribed by the Secretary of State. It
is an irrevocable action that cannot be reversed. Should you choose to
pursue renunciation of your U.S. citizenship, you will have to complete
form DS-4079 – Request for Determination of Possible Loss of United
States Citizenship and come to the Consulate to sign an “Oath of
Renunciation of the Nationality of the United States” and a “Statement
of Understanding”. These documents form the basis for the Department of
State’s decision regarding the U.S. citizen’s request to renounce
citizenship and are enclosed for your information.Please review these additional documents before scheduling an
appointment: Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship (
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html
<http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html> ), Right
of Residence in the U.S. (
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_777.html
<http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_777.html> ), and
Dual Nationality (
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html
<http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html> ).On July 13, 2010 the Department of State implemented a fee of $450 for
administrative processing of formal renunciation of U.S. citizenship.
This fee is payable in either U.S. or Canadian dollars or by major
credit card on the day of your appointment.Once you have all forms filled out and you have gathered the required
evidence, please email vancouveracs@state.gov
<mailto:vancouveracs@state.gov> to schedule an appointment. Your email
should indicate that you read this email and that you have filled out
all your required forms and gathered all required supporting
documentation. Please include a contact phone number in your email.IMPORTANT NOTE REGARDING APPOINTMENTS
If you arrive fully prepared for your appointment, we will likely
process your loss of nationality in one interview. If you do not have
the forms filled out or if you do not have all required original
evidence, you will need to return for a second appointment.At the time of your appointment you must bring:
–Completed and unsigned Form DS4079 (
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
<http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf> )–-Completed Form DS4080 (
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
<http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf> )–Completed Form DS4081 (
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf
<http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf> )–Original proof of U.S. citizenship. See this website for information
on proof of U.S. citizenship and requirements for U.S. birth
certificates:
http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html#step3first
<http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html#step3first> .–Original proof of other citizenship (often a valid Canadian passport).
–Original evidence of name changes, if applicable (usually marriage
certificates of official name change document).–Your NEXUS card, if you have been issued one.
–Your U.S. Social Security Card, if you have one.
–The address of your last residence in the United States.
–Original evidence of your prior expatriating act if you are
documenting a prior relinquishment of U.S. citizenship (usually a
Canadian certificate of citizenship with the date you became a Canadian
citizen). This is not required if you are currently a U.S. citizen
renouncing your U.S. citizenship. Please see this link to learn about
the difference between relinquishment and renunciation (
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
<http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html> ).–$450 for documentation of formal renunciation. We accept cash and
credit cards but do not accept debit or personal checks.Please refer to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) website
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Form-8854,-Initial-and-Annual-Expatriation-Statem
ent
<http://www.irs.gov/uac/Form-8854,-Initial-and-Annual-Expatriation-State
ment> for information on U.S. federal tax form 8854 “Initial and Annual
Expatriation Information Statement”.Should you have any questions please send an e-mail to
vancouveracs@state.gov. <mailto:vancouveracs@state.gov.%20> “
Note Nov. 2013: No major changes since original posting, but for an update, see E hockin’s comment below regarding modification to this s/he received in November.
File 8854 as soon as you want.
Finally, had my interview for renunciation at the Consulate office in Vancouver yesterday (Friday, 9/11). All things considered, it went very well. A few glitches. The officer interviewing me informed me that because I had taken out Canadian citizenship some 25 years ago and sworn an oath to the Queen that I actually qualified for relinquishing rather than renunciation. He said that he would fill out the appropriate forms for me while I waited in the waiting room for the final interview with the Consulate Officer. He did and when called to my second interview he had everything ready. There was some concern as I didn’t have a U.S. Passport to turn in, as my last one was relinquished when I got my first Canadian Passport 25 years ago. I also didn’t have a U.S. Social Security card to turn in, again lost some time after when I first came to Canada some 40 years ago. I did have all my copies of my now up to date U.S. tax filings for the last 6 years though and the SS number was on them, which they accepted as proof. I was then told to convince them of my reasons for leaving. I remained calm and polite, not what I was feeling at all. I basically told them that I considered that I had already ceased to be American when I took out Canadian Citizenship, and had acted accordingly. I was then walked through the relinquishment procedures and documents, signed off and recorded by the Consulate Officer. I was told that I would now have to file the 8854 form for tax year 2014 which would not be printed or distributed till Jan. 2015. After that I should receive my CLN document. The people I dealt with at the Consulate were extremely helpful, polite and considerate. Not what I expected at all, after all the trouble just getting to that stage. I was also not required to post any exit tax because of using the relinquishment procedure rather than the renunciation procedure. WHAT A RELIEF!! Its been one very expensive ($12000 tax filing costs, etc.) and stressful time. Now the end is finally in sight!
I did not think you had to do the taxes if you relinquished rather than renounced? In any case, congratulations. It is an ordeal to be celebrated. I also had nothing but a positive experience in Vancouver with the professionalism of the consular staff. Very good indeed.
John Johnson. I’m very happy for you that you are relieved. Congrats on that score.
Unfortunately you seem to have received poor and expensive advice.
Because you relinquished 25 years ago, there was no need for you to file any US tax returns. There is also no need to file 8854. Was it H&R Block who misled you ?
Hopefully others can learn from your experience.
@Islander, it depends when you relinquished. As John Johnson did it 25 years ago, i.e. before June 3, 2004, then there was no need for him to file any returns, FBAR’s, etc, which would also mean he didn’t need to file an 8854. However, if you relinquished after June 3, 2004 then you still have to meet the filing requirments of 5 years’ tax filings to be able to sign the 8854 truthfully. Since he has done the filings he will need to file the 8854 to finish off the process. It’s the date of your relinquishment which governs your filing requirements, not the fact that you relinquished rather than renounced. If I had been able to relinquish instead of renouncing last year for example, I would still have needed to back file the 5 years tax returns and 8854 to clear my US tax obligations. There’s more here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
@John Johnson, I’m concerned by your remark about when you’d receive your CLN. It sounds from what you say that your CLN is not going to be sent to you until you file the 8854 form in 2015. Is this really what they said? Because it’s a major change to the way things are done if so and could cause problems for many people if this is going to be a worldwide policy. Can you confirm this?
I’m also surprised that they needed John Johnson’s SS No. Was that somehow used in lieu of a US passport or birth certificate? But that does not seem right. I thought they needed something to confirm original US citizenship (i.e., US passport or birth certificate), and I know they should not require anyone to divulge a SS No.
And of course they are completely misinformed in telling him he would have to file an 8854. I pity someone with a relinquishing date of pre 2004 trying to figure out how to fill out the form. It would be nice if clearly stated “You do not have to file Form 8854″ if you expatriated prior to June 4, 2004”.
A small clarification: You may need to renounce, rather than relinquish, if you did things like vote in a presidential election, register your kids etc. This is regardless of time of taking out Canadian citizenship.
I was originally informed by the accounting firm I used, MNP, which also happens to be involved on Canada’s behalf in the ongoing negotiations with the U.S. regarding this entire tax mess for ex-pats, that I would have to get current on taxes to pursue renunciation. I also confirmed this with the IRS before beginning, who also told be that I could not relinquish as I hadn’t elected for that option when taking out Canadian citizenship. I never did vote or register kids, etc. in the U.S. after leaving there. I was told by the officers in Vancouver that I would have to do the 8854 because I was formally relinquishing on 9/11/2014, even though the event (Canadian citizenship) happened 25 years ago. Yes, they also told me that I would not get the CLN until I had filed the 8854 with the IRS, even though I had registered my relinquishment with the consulate. By the way, Duke of Devon, I didn’t use H&R Block, but my brother did (he is in the same circumstances as me). Because of that he is now trying to negotiate away some very large penalties caused by their filing for him. I had to pay for the accounting, but nothing was owed to the U.S. in the form of taxes.
Very sorry to hear about what appears to be new wrinkles. I received my CLN after renouncing and have not heard anything from the IRS after doing my level best to satisfy their requirements. Does anyone know whether I will hear, or is no news good news?
@Islander, no news is good news as far as the IRS is concerned. Unless there’s a problem you’ll never hear from them.
@John Johnson, then that is another change they’ve made and frankly not one that’s legal as far as I know. Your tax situation is totally separate from your relinquishment/renunciation and holding up a CLN until you’ve filed an 8854 form is frankly outrageous!
The having to file now even though you relinquished 25 years ago is a twist the IRS brought in on the 8854 form where it says it uses the date you notify the embassy/consulate of your expatriating act for tax purposes, rather than the expatriating date itself.
We need to know if other consulates are doing what Vancouver seems to be doing. Is this just a rogue consulate or has it received an unknown (at this time) directive that all the other consulates in the world have received as well? Cripes this whole process has gone from uncomfortable, to punitive to tortuous, in the timespan of a couple of years.
Re John Johnson situation.
I don’t see how they can withhold the CLN until after 8854 is filed. 8854 is for non-USCs, You are not officially a non-USC until the CLN is issued. You do not know that the CLN was issued until you have received it. So, how do they expect you to file 8854 when you are officially still a USC? This makes little sense to me. Note that even for straightforward renunciation, it is technically possible for your renunciation, and thus the CLN, to be denied, making this even more odd.
In fact, I recall a number of people in the past fretting about how they had not yet received their CLN and the time to file 8854 (and their final returns) was approaching. They were wondering if they should just go ahead and file anyway.
@Islander
As Medea indicated, this is nothing to worry about. Once I finished my final set of returns my name showed up on the revered “Shame” list. Keep a watch for yours!
And Congratulations!
@john johnson, this is off the main topic here, but could you elaborate on what negotiations are ‘ongoing’?
I wonder what advice they are providing given that this blog at MNP defends the FATCA IGA and enabling legislation as applied to Canadian citizens and residents http://www.mnp.ca/en/media-centre/blog/2014/9/5/fatca-is-not-your-enemy though it criticizes CBT .
Can someone remind me how to access the “shame” list?
@ Clevegirl
This is the latest one:
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2014/08/07/2014-18712/quarterly-publication-of-individuals-who-have-chosen-to-expatriate-as-required-by-section-6039g
@EmBee
Thanks for the link. My 2 daughters and I continue not to show up on this list despite having renounced at the end of 2013, having received our CLNs and having filed 8854s. What are other renunciants’ experience with the list?
John Johnson. Thank you for your response.
How unfortunate for you and your brother. Clearly MNP misled you in order to earn a large fee. Too bad it would cost more than it’s worth to sue them or to try and get your money back.
When you became Canadian 25 yrs ago, you relinquished US citizenship. This was confirmed at your recent meeting at the Vancouver Consulate. For anyone who relinquished before Feb 1995, we know there is no need to file tax returns or 8854.
If you check on 8854, you will see that the earliest time that is mentioned is June 2004.
I fully realize there is discussion about when you relinquished vs. when you notify them .
They are not supposed to withhold your CLN until you file a 8854. That is just wrong.
Oh well, look on the bright side. You didn’t owe taxes, you saved the $2400 fee to renounce and your ordeal is almost over.
Let this be a lesson to others. Know your stuff before getting hooked up with outfits like H&R Block or MNP.
Has anyone else reported a case where:
They became a citizen of another country many years ago (at least 20 years)
Since obtaining another citizenship, filed 1040 returns well after the year during which they obtained that other citizenship.
Were able to relinquish ( back dated to years ago) in spite of filing U.S. returns
Have not shown up either and I renounced in end of November and received my CLN in February. “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn.”
Haha – feel the same way.
I relinquished in Sept. 2013 and received my CLN 2014 I am NOT on the list yet!
John Johnson.. Your post perfectly illustrates why people have to be so careful.
This is incorrect and shows the IRS doesn’t know the state dep’t rules.
. This is also wrong showing that consular officials don’t know the IRS law. Unfortunately you were caught in the middle.
John Johnson, since the Vancouver consulate didn’t know the rules on the 8854, it is possible that the info they gave you on when you will receive your CLN is also incorrect.
However, if it isn’t, this is new and troubling and possibly something that should be mentioned to the ADCS to run by the legal team for the Charter Challenge b/c it is more evidence that USC can’t simply be renounced away as the Harper govt has claimed.
@John Johnson
Your case, though I am glad you seem relieved, is truly disheartening. Since others have focused on the misinformation given to you by IRS, etc, I will not. But it seems to me, from the very first, your accounting firm should have been able to establish that you were not a US Person, had clearly relinquished and should never have suggested to you to file tax returns so that you could renounce. I am curious, did they even ask you or review your situation with regard to your citizenship status?
We have heard of people who were clearly not US Persons, being put into OVDI for example, by very well-known firms (who could not possibly justify such conduct). It is hard to fathom why they would risk their reputations and make themselves liable to be sued for such lack of judgement. I presume they are as arrogant as those at the IRS/State or think they can get away with it. Somewhere down the line, this needs to be exposed and challenged.