The BBC posted an article recently on the exodus of U.S. Citizens and asked readers to share their stories. A couple of different Brockers posted the link to the follow up on comment threads and one asked if it couldn’t be shared in a post, an excellent idea, so here it is.
The article contains the stories of those who came to the conclusion that being a dual citizen with the United States as one of those nationalities wasn’t workable.
Some specifically cite the burden and expense of tax compliance, but not everyone. And for most, the reasoning was far more complex.
I haven’t yet relinquished my citizenship but have plans to do so at the earliest opportunity and like most of the stories you will read at the BBC, my main reasons have nothing to do with “evading” taxes because I don’t owe any and being a relatively new ex-patriot, I don’t have much in my new home of Canada to report anyway. I was lucky enough to discover the pension and savings traps set by United States for its “off-shore” citizens and so have avoided them.
Of course, avoidance means that I am not going to be as set for retirement some day as I would have liked to be, nor will I have saved as adequately for my child’s university education, but some things can’t be helped.
I didn’t set out to be a former American and I don’t know if it is truly possible for me to shed my early training (some might call it indoctrination) fully, but as I have journeyed, I’ve come to discover that I really should have been born a Canadian and coming here has set right the wrong of my birth on American soil.
Like many others, who find themselves living out their lives far away from their birth land, I left for love.
I met a Canadian on the Internet and moved here to be with him. Nothing sinister or” tax evadey” about it. Although I am sure that Uncle Sam would beg to differ, I really gave little thought to anything other than beginning life anew with the exotic Canadian of my dreams.
I will be here seven years come the new year and am months – with luck – away from full citizenship, and though once I thought nothing of being a dual, I now realize that citizenship is really an “all in” or “all out” state of being and that I am not alone in that particular way of thinking. I can’t tell you how many Canadians are pleased to learn that I plan to be Canadian only and that it is important to them that newcomers “buy in” and assimilate. I am not sure if this is a validating experience for them or stems from some latent nationalism, but it’s only my American family and friends who are shocked by my choice.
Why?
Partly because of the indoctrination that is inevitable regardless of where you are born, but also there is a fear that I will be lost to the physically at some future date when the U.S. government bars me, which is ironic because for a land of supposedly free people who pride themselves on being the model of democracy, banishment looms large and seems ever-present.
Finally, however, I don’t believe – in my heart of hearts – that the Canadian government has the strength of will or the actual political clout to protect me should I stay a dual.
Justin Trudeau, in an email reply to a Brocker, even points out that as Americans, the U.S, government has the right to impose whatever rules they like on citizens no matter where they are and that other governments cannot interfere – even when the citizens in question are duals.
If Mr. Hope and Hard Work isn’t brave enough to stand up for Canadian/American duals, what’s a girl to do?
Sad. But a reality that has to be faced.
To be a Canadian, who is fully recognized and protected as such, I must be only a Canadian.
And really, is that so bad? I don’t think so. More and more I find myself taking a Canadian stance or point of view that puts me even more at odds with my heritage than when I was a square peg living in that round hole down south.
Many Canadians I know of refer to Canada as a ‘mosaic’ vs ‘melting pot’ and am frankly surprised that you have the impression that it’s important to Canadians that you be ‘all in’ to Canada by renouncing your US citizenship. That said, it’s possible that Canadians may have a great appreciation for an American renouncing US citizenship knowing how most Americans feel about being a member of the greatest-country-on-earth club.
Congrats on finding your ‘exotic Canadian’ 🙂 May you have a long and happy life together.
bubblebustin, maybe it’s just Western Canadian culture and it’s certainly not an overt thing, but when they talk about it openly, a lot of people seem to be happier with those of us immigrants who take the extra step than with those who don’t.
But I agree that giving up US citizenship is seen as huge even when you aren’t one yourself though that is based on a cultural and media stereotype of what living there means and the USG itself tirelessly promotes the myth that there is no place like or better than America.
i think that most Canadians would be shocked in general that anyone would feel the need to renounce their other citizenship(s), as I can’t think of any immigrants of any other country other than the US who would feel the need to, can you? Most refugees are embraced with open arms and encouraged to keep their cultural ties as members of a multicultural society and Canada doesn’t apply pressure for new Canadians to renounce other citizenships, maybe innately knowing how difficult that would be for many. Americans may be different perhaps, as retaining our US citizenship is actually proving harmful to Canada and other host countries.
Most are generally shocked by the continuing requirements that America citizens are under and by the idea that the USG believes that American law usurps the laws where an expat lives if they conflict, but no, I can’t think of any of nationality that is forced to give up citizenship as a matter of survival.
In fact, unless you go back to the old Soviet Union and states, I can’t think of any that were as punitive to expats as the USG is.
Could be, as I said, a western thing and it doesn’t go as far as actually giving up original citizenship as much as it does adapting. Cultural, language (to an extent) and religion notwithstanding, people here really prefer to see immigrants becoming Canadian as much as possible.
Personally, I think that one of the many things that makes Canada awesome is that people are from everywhere and yet there is not the overt hostility and racism that I am used to from the States. Although, having lived with subtle and overt racism for most of my life, I am probably more sensitive to that people here are, so I pick up on things that others might not notice.
And I am keenly aware of not being a citizen because – probably – it’s largely assumed that I am a citizen. Though that surprises me still because I have noticeable twang that can only be the result of living far too close to Missouri for most of my life.
Yoga Girl, speaking as a born and bred Canadian (pesky birth-soil aside LOL), I think Canadian happiness with immigrants happens in degrees. First, we’re happy that you saw us fit enough to live among us. Next, were happier that we’re good enough for you to want to “become” one of us, as a Canadian citizen. Finally, we’re overjoyed that you accept us so much that you are willing to give up citizenship of another country, the most you can do as a “new” citizen.
This is pretty simplistic, and while Canadians don’t usually have the same view as Americans of expats, we still believe our country is pretty great, all while we think it’s pretty neat when Canadians live in other countries (except, perhaps, the US).
I’m glad you’ve found acceptance as an immigrant. 🙂
Yoga Girl – If you lived in old Upper Canada and not the west you would be far more likely to have run into some of the overt anti-American hostility that makes “Canada” less awesome and more like any other fundamentally repressive state. Canada’s degree of apparent freedom is mostly a function of geographic dispersion and consequent unenforcability.
PS Unfree Canada just ranked 55 out of 93 in right to information:
http://www.cjfe.org/blog/global-right-information-rankings-established-democracies-falling-behind
Interesting comment from Justin:
Clearly Justin believes that citizens are property of the state and not human beings. Don’t vote for him!
In any case, I believe Justin is dead wrong.
Under international law U.S. sovereignty ends at its borders. Even assuming, U.S. citizens are nothing but property (which Justin and the U.S. believe) it is questionable whether the U.S. can impose rules on its chattels in Canada.
Test it this way:
If a dog ran over the border from the U.S. to Canada, could the U.S. take the position that because it owns the dog, that it can regulate the treatment of it in Canada.
When it comes to the U.S. extraterritorial application of U.S. law, the issue is NOT:
What is the view of the U.S.
The issue is:
What is the view of the international community about the attempts of the U.S. to impose its laws in other countries.
Sooner or later this concept is going to be tested in an international court.
But, as we approach an election in Canada, spread the word far and wide that:
Trudeau Number 1 through the Charter of Rights gave individuals constitutional rights as human beings.
Trudeau Number 2 believes that citizens are nothing but the property of the state.
Visiting the terracotta warriors in China, it is like the congress of USA. I am glad I renounced. Plus the rain in Vancouver puts in in my head. Terracotta+rain=dysfunction in USA.
What I can’t understand is why certain members of Congress have the need to CONTROL all USCs everywhere except when they think it’s OK like not being able to claim unemployment, Medicare, or other costly programmes from abroad. I’m sorry but the pay your money and get nothing back in return routine doesn’t gel with me.
I was surprised but pleased that the Beeb picked my comment and ran me as #6 of the 20. The pic is from High Park, Toronto.
I could have ranted and raved at the consulate or to the Beeb, but I decided to end my long alienation from the States by concentrating instead on my affection for Canadians and the positive aspects of my life in Canada. The knowing smile from Ms.Brady at the consulate told me that mine wasn’t the first love letter to Canada that she’d read in her day.
My thanks to this site for cluing me into the possibility of just ‘relinquishing’, by the way.
Now for the arduous task of defending Canadian sovereignty from our neighbour or from China (i.e. via FIPA trade agreement)…
The Mom, you are probably right.
usxcanada, my husband tells me that farther north in Alberta, the old-timers were quite anti-American and none too crazy about immigrants generally, so it might also be a function of age that hopefully fades more and more with time. However, my husband is old enough to remember Trudeau Sr and is somewhat critical of the immigration policy that has “changed” Canada – in his opinion anyway.
USCitizenAbroad, it’s hard to ever know what a politician really means and though people like to dismiss Justin as a featherweight with a pretty face, I have read more than one commentary that pegs him as a fairly shrewd political animal. But if the leaders in other countries readily buy into the USG’s ownership version of citizenship, we are doomed regardless of their motivation. US law shouldn’t have undue sway here outside of properly established treaties and requests that align with recognized mutual interests. Threats, whether the US intends to follow through or not, shouldn’t be given more consideration than the law of Canada. The US can make use of proper channels if they suspect wrong-doing and FATCA is pure over reach, plain and simple.
Don, because control equals power and power is everything. Just look at them now. All quite willing to destroy the pitiful economic recovery and send more citizens into poverty for the sake of control.
http://www.thetakeaway.org/story/why-americans-abroad-are-giving-us-citizenship/
Anti Americanism? My own mother in law was just incensed that her favoured youngest boy was marrying an American. And never mind he was marrying an American, I was from the dreaded south to boot!! We had years of remarks passed on to me that I was to somehow deal with and justify my presence in their lives. However, over time she and I became extremely close. I had to stand up to her though because the playing the “good American” wasn’t going to work. The day after I let her have it so to speak she apologized to me and said “I think I’ve mis judged you.” After that we got on like gang busters, peas on a pod. I loved that woman and I hated to get blunt with her but, I wasn’t going to have her talking that way to me in front of my child who would then learn it’s okay to sit silent while others speak to you in a disrespectful manner.
I look back on all that now with a kind of affection as she passed in 2010. I miss her but, boy she did NOT make it easy to settle into my new life here. LOLOL! She was a pistol! Any other incidents I dealt with didn’t really mean a lot to me and never bothered me. Only if something was said to my kid did it ever bother me. That only happened once..oh and when I was having him in the hospital the head nurse was SO anti American she made the birthing process a real ordeal…the other nurses were embarrassed by her behaviour though and were super kind to me. All in the past and honestly, if you are an American abroad you may as well expect to get some stereotyping and back lash due to how the U.S. has behaved with other nations. It is what it is.
Frankly, as I have said before the U.S. is losing a LOT of good ambassadors over this all to their own detriment. They haven’t valued that role at all and still do not. I do think in the future they may realize what they lost but,not before it is too late.
I just wasn’t able to have them gathering up private data on my spouse and child. Neither have ever been American. FATCA goes too far. That signing rights portion of their law is plain stupid in high tax countries, it is not needed. They can justify it all they want to but, it makes zero sense to every other country in the world. They are now down to a “Because I said so!” rebuttal. Well, except for the part where if you object to being such a huge imposition to your foreign family you might be engaging in “illicit activities” Give me a break…as Daniel says if I am hiding money, WHERE is it! My family could sure use all this money they say they are seeking to find. We didn’t have that kind of money and in any case they can already see what we have had by looking at our Canadian tax returns which we faithfully filed every year.
This is a witch hunt plain and simply and it lumps in the many innocent with the guilty to no good purpose. AT ALL.
Emphatically, yes, before more of other countries funds for making their banks part of the IRS with FATCA goes down a black hole. Scratch FATCA before it is in force, before it is too late. One has to ask over and over why the US is the only country in the world (other than little Eritrea) that uses Citizenship-Based Taxation. Why? It is, for the US, the obvious cash cow. Any collateral damage, which will not be a small minority and which could be remedied with US Resident-Based Taxation as a start, is unwarranted.
Kudos for Mr. Ditka and his wife who pay only about $500 per year for their US tax compliance. Please forward the contact information so others may employ those professionals for their US tax compliance if they wish to remain US citizens.
And, no, I do not want my developmentally delayed son and others like him (whose parents, guardians, trustees cannot renounce on behalf of, even with a court order) part of the ACCEPTABLE COLLATERAL DAMAGE because he is entrapped into a supposed US citizenship he had no choice in. He has absolutely no benefit from the US and that he is entrapped shows the moral decay of US thinking. How can he have your good riddance?
Nice, collateral damage acceptable in the name of the cause.
Jackie Bugnion and Ruth Freeborn, thanks for your parts of the interview here.
Ah, that word ‘myth’ again. What are the odds that Mr Ditka has another citizenship besides US — after 26 years it seems likely — and if so, whether his UK bank even knows that he is a US citizen. Any pension or ISA he holds will likely contain a not-for-US-citizens tag, so either he has only US-sited retirement planning or, and my bet is this one, he has local plans but has failed, either intentionally or otherwise, to advise the administrators of his US citizenship.
After 26 years it is unlikely that he has not at some point run into PFIC hell, home sale capital gain tax, currency exchange rate phantom gain, tax on repayment of a foreign mortgage, tax on foreign unemployment benefits, US self employment tax, and so on. Perhaps he will visit here and tell us just how he performed this minor miracle.
@Atticus,
Thank you for doing the Takeaway interview!
@Watcher,
I wonder if Mike even lives outside USA. His writing style sounds familiar. I would not be surprised if he was actually a USA homelander, posing as a happy US expat, honoured to continue to pay homage to the exceptional USA.
Methinks, ‘they’ are starting to smell fire, and are getting desperate.
Go Canada! Go!
Mike Mitka?, Max Murdoch? — google them / wonder if they appreciate their names being used by this person.
I believe whatever the real name of this commenter says he frowns on “Copy and Paste”. Here is as Mike Murdoch in quest to call us “Myths” as the recipents of collateral damage with FATCA and US Citizenship-Based Taxation consequences: http://www.fsitaxposts.com/2013/09/25/myth-vs-fatca-truth-treasurys-effort-combat-offshore-tax-evasion/#comment-283
THey could easily be employees of Stack O Lies. EIther doing it on their own time, or doing it as a part of their job in the office.
After they come back with nonsense so many times, One can also consider letting lying dogs sleep.
@Mark Twain,
i disagree! Never, never let them sleep. Newbies to FATCA and CBT read what they write, and listen to what they say, so we need to be ever vigilant.
How quaint that Mike from London thinks that 500. or more annually is no big deal – especially in light of the many zero US returns demanded regardless, and in terms of the zero respect, services, benefits, etc. we receive from the US for our pains.
500. per year times 65 years or more = 32,500.
That is a conservative estimate – assuming that one will be reporting for only 65 years, and that preparer costs don’t rise over time.
In my world, 32,500. is not peanuts. Even paid by annual installments of 500. per year. In contrast, I can file my own Canadian taxes at a cost of 35-60. if I use an online filing program. Even if I get a CA to do it for me, I have never had to pay even half that for a Canadian return. And that is for reporting income that I actually earned on Canadian soil – which actually pays for the services I enjoy.
How quaint that he thinks that stripsearching, penalizing and datamining ALL those who legitimately live abroad will stop US RESIDENT million and billionaires from avoiding/evading US taxes. And discards the real impact on us with that by now too-familiar old tune about necessary collateral damage, with a predictable rousing chorus of ‘unintended’ consequences – and a little counterpoint of ‘tax cheats’ and “don’t let the door hit you on the way out cause there are plenty more where you came from”.
Does this guy by any chance work for the US government abroad? Or for a corporation who makes up the difference in what he loses, or provides help with compliance? How does his non-US employer feel about being reported on Mike’s FBARs? How about the church where he is a volunteer treasurer? Or does he adjust his life abroad to fit US demands?
@Badger
Probably the latter. Some folks are just fine living like 2nd class citizens in their “perches” (a Diane Francisism). By the way, I wonder how her book sales are going on a Canada-US merger now that the USG is in deeper disarray?
Anyone else want to put money on Senior Researcher/Mike Ditka/Global Capitalism being one of those internet trolls that are paid by the US Government? A seven figure AGI and a $500 tax prep bill? Not a chance.
It’s a good thing that government sponsored propaganda can’t be disseminated inside the US. Oh, wait (http://rt.com/usa/smith-mundt-domestic-propaganda-121/)
@Edelweiss, I was also wondering if he might be employed by the US government or could even be employed by the fatca compliance industry?? I originally thought he was just an annoying troll but now believe that something more underhanded is happening. Very disturbing, regardless…
“exotic Canadian”. Being 100% Canadian, I look in the mirror and don’t find myself “exotic”. 🙂 But then again, I guess people would have to ask my wife what her view is. Most of the time she rolls her eyes and says “I don’t know how…you manage to survive…you don’t cook, you’d starve if I don’t cook for you…” 🙂